The people actually effecting Ukraine aide are the conservatives who lean fascist.
Oh, the lion’s share of the blame belongs to them, absolutely.
and they certainly dont influence US foreign policy.
They influence voters, who influence US foreign policy. The increasing hostility on the left (or what passes for it in the US) is very much fueled by online left spaces where such fascist talking points are tolerated or celebrated. Communism isn’t as unpopular as it was for my parents’ and grandparents’ generation, and with that broader shift comes the possibility (and reality) of radicalism and sheer edgy fucking stupidity getting ahold of a minority of those shifting. Approximately 30% of Gen Z (and 27% of my gen, Millennials) has a positive view of Marxism (which is great!). If we assume only 10% of them are dumb enough to buy into tankie talking points, that’s still some 6 million people.
I think a lot of people don’t understand just how angry the younger people are with how the system is “working” today. It’s almost hilarious to me how conservatives scream angrily about how “young people are communists and hate capitalism” without trying to understand why. When a person’s prospects of outearning their parents (or hell, earning as much as them) are lowering every year, is it any surprise people are fed up with being exploited?
Interestingly, I suspect that we are seeing an uptick in tankie-like behavior because of that anger being directed at a single entity: the United States. It’s a lack of understanding nuance paired with anger that is driving the sort of “anyone against America is good because America bad.”
(To be clear, the US has and continues to do fucked up shit, but it has also done positive things as well, which is why nuance is important here)
You ever see Tankies outside of Lemmy or old CTH on reddit? Because Ive been organizing since my 20s and met just one in real life. I would be flabbergasted if there were more than 1% of the figures you pointed out were tankies, let alone 10%. Also tankies don’t believe in voting and are still dwarfed by other sources of misinformation. The tankies make themselves nice and loud, they’re very easy to ignore. Unlike the types of propaganda that get injected into Meta platforms and Twitter. I still think you’re swinging at ghosts because its easy to do.
Lets say tomorrow there are no more tankies, they magically never existed in the english speaking world, what actually changes for the US?
Luckily, flat earth has few foreign policy implications yet. But general hostility to science, the root of flat eartherism, is definitely something that has had noticeable effects on our society and politics.
same. I stopped being active in my trade union because my local’s case officer has had his brain rotted by Grayzone and Dore etc, he harassed me for months with late night messages that “no Russia doesn’t target civilians on purpose” “Bucha was maybe a Ukrainian false-flag”, and publicly accused me of being a Nazi supporter for donating to a Ukrainian medical charity.
no help from the rest of the union because he always had plenty of fucking Glen Greenwald, David Sacks, etc tweets to “prove there are questions, he’s just asking questions and unconvinced by NATO CIA affiliated narratives”
I want everyone to get along, so I try to work with them, but it’s hard sometimes because they seem more focused on building the party than doing the work
I would be flabbergasted if there were more than 1% of the figures you pointed out were tankies, let alone 10%.
I said ‘buy into tankie talking points’. The point isn’t that the 10% (itself just a random number, of course) are tankies, but that 10% are influenced by the shite that tankies spread.
Although I would emphasize that there is a certain percentage of people who are batshit insane on any given issue, and some 10% of Americans are tolerant of fascism. 10% of Gen Z going tankie instead doesn’t seem that far-fetched to me.
Also tankies don’t believe in voting
This is true, but as mentioned, it’s not even about them, specifically - but what effects they have on discourse.
and are still dwarfed by other sources of misinformation.
Yeah, if I was in charge of a NGO dedicated to combating misinformation or something I wouldn’t be dedicating many resources to tankies specifically.
Lets say tomorrow there are no more tankies, they magically never existed in the english speaking world, what actually changes for the US?
Support for Ukraine increases by 2%-3% points as a very loud (as you note) minority is no longer amplifying misinformation and propaganda under the guise of combating the absolutely fucked state of our society.
Oh, the lion’s share of the blame belongs to them, absolutely.
They influence voters, who influence US foreign policy. The increasing hostility on the left (or what passes for it in the US) is very much fueled by online left spaces where such fascist talking points are tolerated or celebrated. Communism isn’t as unpopular as it was for my parents’ and grandparents’ generation, and with that broader shift comes the possibility (and reality) of radicalism and sheer edgy fucking stupidity getting ahold of a minority of those shifting. Approximately 30% of Gen Z (and 27% of my gen, Millennials) has a positive view of Marxism (which is great!). If we assume only 10% of them are dumb enough to buy into tankie talking points, that’s still some 6 million people.
I think a lot of people don’t understand just how angry the younger people are with how the system is “working” today. It’s almost hilarious to me how conservatives scream angrily about how “young people are communists and hate capitalism” without trying to understand why. When a person’s prospects of outearning their parents (or hell, earning as much as them) are lowering every year, is it any surprise people are fed up with being exploited?
Interestingly, I suspect that we are seeing an uptick in tankie-like behavior because of that anger being directed at a single entity: the United States. It’s a lack of understanding nuance paired with anger that is driving the sort of “anyone against America is good because America bad.”
(To be clear, the US has and continues to do fucked up shit, but it has also done positive things as well, which is why nuance is important here)
Yeah. The status quo is fucked. The rise in leftism is the only solace I have. The kids are alright, I hope.
You ever see Tankies outside of Lemmy or old CTH on reddit? Because Ive been organizing since my 20s and met just one in real life. I would be flabbergasted if there were more than 1% of the figures you pointed out were tankies, let alone 10%. Also tankies don’t believe in voting and are still dwarfed by other sources of misinformation. The tankies make themselves nice and loud, they’re very easy to ignore. Unlike the types of propaganda that get injected into Meta platforms and Twitter. I still think you’re swinging at ghosts because its easy to do.
Lets say tomorrow there are no more tankies, they magically never existed in the english speaking world, what actually changes for the US?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/04/04/only-two-thirds-of-american-millennials-believe-the-earth-is-round/?sh=e7dd4067ec66
Theres more flat earther Millennials than tankies by either estimation we use too. Can’t wait for them to influence foreign policy.
Luckily, flat earth has few foreign policy implications yet. But general hostility to science, the root of flat eartherism, is definitely something that has had noticeable effects on our society and politics.
they’re taking over my local organizing scene.
same. I stopped being active in my trade union because my local’s case officer has had his brain rotted by Grayzone and Dore etc, he harassed me for months with late night messages that “no Russia doesn’t target civilians on purpose” “Bucha was maybe a Ukrainian false-flag”, and publicly accused me of being a Nazi supporter for donating to a Ukrainian medical charity.
no help from the rest of the union because he always had plenty of fucking Glen Greenwald, David Sacks, etc tweets to “prove there are questions, he’s just asking questions and unconvinced by NATO CIA affiliated narratives”
Tankies are poison.
I want everyone to get along, so I try to work with them, but it’s hard sometimes because they seem more focused on building the party than doing the work
I said ‘buy into tankie talking points’. The point isn’t that the 10% (itself just a random number, of course) are tankies, but that 10% are influenced by the shite that tankies spread.
Although I would emphasize that there is a certain percentage of people who are batshit insane on any given issue, and some 10% of Americans are tolerant of fascism. 10% of Gen Z going tankie instead doesn’t seem that far-fetched to me.
This is true, but as mentioned, it’s not even about them, specifically - but what effects they have on discourse.
Yeah, if I was in charge of a NGO dedicated to combating misinformation or something I wouldn’t be dedicating many resources to tankies specifically.
Support for Ukraine increases by 2%-3% points as a very loud (as you note) minority is no longer amplifying misinformation and propaganda under the guise of combating the absolutely fucked state of our society.
thanks pug, for posting and commenting so much, for countering yog/lb’s poison every day.
you’re doing good, and it really helps me personally, seeing sane responses that i don’t have the energy to make myself so often.
I’m glad my posting offers you some relief! I like to remind myself now and again that most people on here are sensible sorts.