Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday introduced a bill to establish a standard four-day workweek in the United States without any reduction in pay. The bill, over a four-year period, would lowe…
Imagine I manage a business where my employees earn $1000 a week, working five 8-hour days. Suppose my profit margin per employee is 10%, resulting in a $1100 return for each one.
Now, if a new law mandates that I pay my employees $1000 for a 4-day workweek, my operation could start incurring losses. The question then arises: where would the necessary additional funds come from? Likely, I’d have to increase my prices. I’m open to considering this arrangement, but I seek clarity on the strategies to mitigate such financial gaps. Should a 4-day workweek lead to a 20% hike in prices, I’m uncertain about the benefits of this change…
I’m all for a more healthy work/life balances, but typically businesses don’t like to incur extra expenses, so I would predict if workers are present 20% less, businesses would charge 20% more to make up the gap, which means workers would end up needing to earn more money, which may lead them to work more hours, making this change pointless.
If this came with some consideration from the federal government, like “we will give a 20% tax break to businesses that do this” I would consider the idea funded and I think it may work. Otherwise, this just feels like voting our way into price increases.
I think you might be making a fundamental assumption that quality of each hour of the day is the same.
Maybe for a particular business it does not matter, they just need an employee on the clock to cover time that customers may come in, but I think many businesses have tried this out, and found that they get about as much from their employees in 32 hours as they do in 40 hours.
I think it helps to give people time to rest and deal with life so that they can be more focused and thoughtful when they are with you.
Look at it this way. Let’s say I run a widget factory. I have a worker, Joe, that I pay $1000/week to. Each day, Joe creates me a widget that I can sell for $220. That means at the end of the week, I have 5 widgets I can sell for $1100, yielding me $100 profit.
Now, we move to a 4 day work week. I pay Joe $1000. He creates me 4 widgets, still worth $220 each. I sell them for $880 total. I now lose $120 each week.
Under the current plan, it seems the guidance is that Joe will magically start working faster and produce more than 1 widget per day. If he does not, my other option is to increase the price of widgets or to decrease the amount of money I pay Joe.
So you won’t be able to steal as much of the value Joe creates from him and instead have to pay him a fairer share? Oh darn. You mean you won’t be able to live in luxury while others do the work for you?
The average profit margin in the US is approximately 7%… a 10% margin is considered healthy. Fluctuations in fuel prices DO threaten businesses. That’s why you see fuel/transportation surcharges and price increases.
Edit: you said “but nobody’s explaining the economics to me”, here you go, here’s the basics of corporate financial management with real numbers and a tiny bit of macroeconomics at the end.
Wait, I don’t get it. You’re saying if you pay a worker 1000$ a week and get revenue of 1100$, then you have a profit margin of 10%. But that’s NOT profit margin (at least not the one one would use for analysis). Not to mention that those numbers are unrealistic because you’d be working at a loss for a very long time, almost guarantee.
You can’t just pull numbers like that and say, “unprofitable!”. Of course it isn’t. You made it that way.
Besides, you’re ignoring the rest of the expenses that often outweigh the payroll fund.
Back to what you called “profit margin,” I’d call it “Return on Payroll Fund.” It’s weird, I don’t like it, it ignores all of the other costs that go into creating a product, don’t use it. In financial management, we use RoS, which is EBIT/Revenue. That’s probably what you were thinking of. Another name for it would be “operating profit margin,” likewise net profit margin would account for ALL of the expenses and not just operating ones.
Now, let’s look at real numbers. I’ll take Nutrien’s 2023 audited financial statement as an example. (Numbers in brackets are what’s deducted to get what’s not in brackets)
Sales - 29056
Freight, transportation, distribution - (974)
Cost of goods sold - (19608)
EBIT - 8474
EBT - 1952
Taxes - (670)
Net earning - 1282
Out of cost of goods sold (2858) is cost of labour, let’s also add (626) from general administrative expenses, and just say it’s all wages.
Effective tax rate - 670/1952*100% = 34,3% (wow, that’s a lot for where I live, also ignoring mining tax for simplicity)
Let’s see what happens to our efficiency once the changes take effect.
All of costs can be divided into Fixed and Variable ones. Labour, in this case, is Variable because we can manipulate it by employing more staff to compensate for reduction in working hours and keep the sales at the same rate. (Contract workers are usually Fixed Cost, but it’s all relative, as no Fixed Cost is ever truly fixed.)
Going from 40 => 32, we have a 20% reduction in working hours. Mind you, this doesn’t mean there will be a 20% hit in productivity. It may be more, it may be less (most likely less), for simplicity let’s say it’s 20%. So, we need 20% more workers to compensate.
(2858+626)*120%=4180.8
New EBT = 1952 + 2858 + 626 - 4180.8 = 1255.2
New net profit = 1255.2*(1-34.3%) = 824.7. Mind you, the effective tax rate will probably be lower if employment affects deductibles.
So, our net profit margin went from 1282/29056 = 4.4% to 2.8%. Looks bad at first glance, but it’s also a bad year. A year prior net profit margin was at whopping 20,3%, so a decrease from 4.4% to 2.8% would be nothing in comparison.
Will it result in increased prices? Yes, but it will also lead to economic growth, because more free time = people spend more money = companies earn more = companies grow faster, but so does inflation.
Awesome, this is the exact point I was trying to make. You can add further arguments that there will be mitigating factors to this, but my reflex was that if this legislation passes, consumers will see price increases.
I don’t have to “let” Joe sell his own widgets. He’d be free to do that regardless. I guess your guidance is that the business should just die under this new model.
It’s typically my experience that a great number of people are not entrepreneurial. They just want to show up to work, do their job, get paid and go home. I’m not talking about coercion of anyone to be FORCED to work for a business. I am just trying to understand how this new legislation would work. My hunch that is if this was passed, consumer prices would increase 20%. If you believe otherwise I would like to understand more.
Actually, you’d need to charge 25% more if you only had 80% of the work to match your current profits (considering only the time and materials for that product and ignoring all other business expenses / taxes / etc.), since 1/0.8 = 1.25. If the worker makes 1 widget a day, you need 25% extra per day to make up the lost widget and still make 5 widgets worth of profit.
Imagine I manage a business where my employees earn $1000 a week, working five 8-hour days. Suppose my profit margin per employee is 10%, resulting in a $1100 return for each one.
Now, if a new law mandates that I pay my employees $1000 for a 4-day workweek, my operation could start incurring losses. The question then arises: where would the necessary additional funds come from? Likely, I’d have to increase my prices. I’m open to considering this arrangement, but I seek clarity on the strategies to mitigate such financial gaps. Should a 4-day workweek lead to a 20% hike in prices, I’m uncertain about the benefits of this change…
I’m all for a more healthy work/life balances, but typically businesses don’t like to incur extra expenses, so I would predict if workers are present 20% less, businesses would charge 20% more to make up the gap, which means workers would end up needing to earn more money, which may lead them to work more hours, making this change pointless.
If this came with some consideration from the federal government, like “we will give a 20% tax break to businesses that do this” I would consider the idea funded and I think it may work. Otherwise, this just feels like voting our way into price increases.
I think you might be making a fundamental assumption that quality of each hour of the day is the same.
Maybe for a particular business it does not matter, they just need an employee on the clock to cover time that customers may come in, but I think many businesses have tried this out, and found that they get about as much from their employees in 32 hours as they do in 40 hours.
I think it helps to give people time to rest and deal with life so that they can be more focused and thoughtful when they are with you.
Do you think your overhead would also decrease if you only had a 4-day work week?
Look at it this way. Let’s say I run a widget factory. I have a worker, Joe, that I pay $1000/week to. Each day, Joe creates me a widget that I can sell for $220. That means at the end of the week, I have 5 widgets I can sell for $1100, yielding me $100 profit.
Now, we move to a 4 day work week. I pay Joe $1000. He creates me 4 widgets, still worth $220 each. I sell them for $880 total. I now lose $120 each week.
Under the current plan, it seems the guidance is that Joe will magically start working faster and produce more than 1 widget per day. If he does not, my other option is to increase the price of widgets or to decrease the amount of money I pay Joe.
So you won’t be able to steal as much of the value Joe creates from him and instead have to pay him a fairer share? Oh darn. You mean you won’t be able to live in luxury while others do the work for you?
Fuck off lmao
I think if widget factories could have that tight of margins, the issues would be totally different.
No competent business owner would employ someone whose value could become non-viable with a fluctuation in fuel cost.
The average profit margin in the US is approximately 7%… a 10% margin is considered healthy. Fluctuations in fuel prices DO threaten businesses. That’s why you see fuel/transportation surcharges and price increases.
Edit: you said “but nobody’s explaining the economics to me”, here you go, here’s the basics of corporate financial management with real numbers and a tiny bit of macroeconomics at the end.
Wait, I don’t get it. You’re saying if you pay a worker 1000$ a week and get revenue of 1100$, then you have a profit margin of 10%. But that’s NOT profit margin (at least not the one one would use for analysis). Not to mention that those numbers are unrealistic because you’d be working at a loss for a very long time, almost guarantee.
You can’t just pull numbers like that and say, “unprofitable!”. Of course it isn’t. You made it that way.
Besides, you’re ignoring the rest of the expenses that often outweigh the payroll fund.
Back to what you called “profit margin,” I’d call it “Return on Payroll Fund.” It’s weird, I don’t like it, it ignores all of the other costs that go into creating a product, don’t use it. In financial management, we use RoS, which is EBIT/Revenue. That’s probably what you were thinking of. Another name for it would be “operating profit margin,” likewise net profit margin would account for ALL of the expenses and not just operating ones.
Now, let’s look at real numbers. I’ll take Nutrien’s 2023 audited financial statement as an example. (Numbers in brackets are what’s deducted to get what’s not in brackets) Sales - 29056 Freight, transportation, distribution - (974) Cost of goods sold - (19608) EBIT - 8474 EBT - 1952 Taxes - (670) Net earning - 1282
Out of cost of goods sold (2858) is cost of labour, let’s also add (626) from general administrative expenses, and just say it’s all wages.
Effective tax rate - 670/1952*100% = 34,3% (wow, that’s a lot for where I live, also ignoring mining tax for simplicity)
Let’s see what happens to our efficiency once the changes take effect.
All of costs can be divided into Fixed and Variable ones. Labour, in this case, is Variable because we can manipulate it by employing more staff to compensate for reduction in working hours and keep the sales at the same rate. (Contract workers are usually Fixed Cost, but it’s all relative, as no Fixed Cost is ever truly fixed.)
Going from 40 => 32, we have a 20% reduction in working hours. Mind you, this doesn’t mean there will be a 20% hit in productivity. It may be more, it may be less (most likely less), for simplicity let’s say it’s 20%. So, we need 20% more workers to compensate. (2858+626)*120%=4180.8
New EBT = 1952 + 2858 + 626 - 4180.8 = 1255.2 New net profit = 1255.2*(1-34.3%) = 824.7. Mind you, the effective tax rate will probably be lower if employment affects deductibles.
So, our net profit margin went from 1282/29056 = 4.4% to 2.8%. Looks bad at first glance, but it’s also a bad year. A year prior net profit margin was at whopping 20,3%, so a decrease from 4.4% to 2.8% would be nothing in comparison.
Will it result in increased prices? Yes, but it will also lead to economic growth, because more free time = people spend more money = companies earn more = companies grow faster, but so does inflation.
Awesome, this is the exact point I was trying to make. You can add further arguments that there will be mitigating factors to this, but my reflex was that if this legislation passes, consumers will see price increases.
The real question isn’t if it will or not, but by how much. If I were to guess, not a whole lot.
You could probably find some research done on this topic already.
or you can go get a real job, admit that private property is theft, and let joe sell his own widgets.
I don’t have to “let” Joe sell his own widgets. He’d be free to do that regardless. I guess your guidance is that the business should just die under this new model.
my guidance is that you don’t need to be profiting off of the labor of other people.
It’s typically my experience that a great number of people are not entrepreneurial. They just want to show up to work, do their job, get paid and go home. I’m not talking about coercion of anyone to be FORCED to work for a business. I am just trying to understand how this new legislation would work. My hunch that is if this was passed, consumer prices would increase 20%. If you believe otherwise I would like to understand more.
Actually, you’d need to charge 25% more if you only had 80% of the work to match your current profits (considering only the time and materials for that product and ignoring all other business expenses / taxes / etc.), since 1/0.8 = 1.25. If the worker makes 1 widget a day, you need 25% extra per day to make up the lost widget and still make 5 widgets worth of profit.
…what business sector are we modeling where these are as negligible as you’re treating them to make this point???
If you’re just here to correct the math then fine but at least be honest about the reality of what you’re calculating
Yes, I was just correcting the math. There are a lot of factors here and I don’t know what the actual cost-benefit analysis would be.