• LillyPip@lemmy.ca
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    6 months ago

    This will sound ridiculous to most people:

    I didn’t go to school after the 8th grade. I dropped out for several reasons, but even without lying, I talked my way into a very good career in IT. There was no database of schooling and I was hired on my personal merits, then I built a user experience department before that was actually a thing.

    Within a few years, I was responsible for hiring but couldn’t hire anyone like myself. I wasn’t allowed to even consider anyone without a college degree, so I would have had to reject myself.

    I’m not sure where I’m going with this. That was 2002, and now in 2024, we’re rejecting people who might be awesome at their job (not to toot my horn, but I was very good at what I did and won industry awards) because they can’t afford to get a degree, as I couldn’t.

    Most industries are pay to play now, and you can’t even break in by being exceptional nowadays. We’re trapping people out of what they’re great at and would love to do just because they were born into poverty.

    Imagine the gifts we’re suppressing and squandering.

    • Eximius@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Thank you for sharing :)

      I think many will agree the bureaucracy and corporate life is killing a lot of things, because of absolute assholes in management positions. But without written out experiences like yours, it is just unsubstantiated ideological hate.

    • KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      6 months ago

      Yeah, I’ve noticed a shift. Even 5 years ago I hardly ever saw the college degree requirement for software development, and if it ever came up my yea experience nipped the question in the bud. These days, with over a decade of experience, I am getting automated rejections because I don’t have a diploma. I have been contacted and actively turned down over the phone after clarifying that I do not have a degree (many AI systems read my resume as having a degree in “degree” for some reason.)

      I’ve put out hundreds of applications, and have had a handful of interviews.

      The degree means nothing. Someone going to school for development doesn’t make them a good developer, it means they test well. My decade+ in the industry with multiple completed projects however…

    • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      It’s more than “you need a degree” now. Some jobs require a undergraduate “business” degree, as if that means anything. This by definition excludes people who get harder degrees.

      So you will see entry level financial roles going to people who have taken a few “leadership” (handshaking) courses and basic accounting. While someone with an English or Sociology degree (who might actually know how to write an email) is rejected.

      Don’t get me started on internships. Getting coffee every day, handing out mail, and doing a 2 week office furniture inventory are not indicators of a promising future.

      The main problem is, businesses literally don’t know how to hire. If you know what skills you need, you can find someone in a day. You can literally set up a folding table at the metro entrance and find 5 good interview candidates.

  • cogman@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    Here’s what’s changed

    • The market has collapsed into a few companies. That means that monopolistic forces are in nearly full force
    • Labor unions have been severely weekend. In the 60s almost out of fear companies were practicing “corporate charity” to try and keep employees from unionizing. They’ve lost that fear.
    • Regulations around corporate stock price manipulation have been all but eliminated. Buybacks use to be illegal because they allow a company to artificially inflate their stock completely unrelated to the actual performance of the company.
    • Social safety nets have been gutted or underfunded.
    • Public education has been destroyed. We used to have a fairly robust public university system that’s been uber privatized with funding reduced to almost nothing.
    • Hospital systems have consolidated as has insurance agencies which not only drives up the price of medical care, it drives down the wages of doctors and nurses while keeping them as minimally staffed as possible. This translates into terrible care that fucks you over when you need any medical work done.
      • cogman@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Pretty much, it’s the very natural consequence of a deregulation and the an-cap philosophy. We’ve seen this before in america during the 1900s. It’s the whole reason Teddy and FDR ended up getting elected.

          • Asafum@feddit.nl
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            6 months ago

            We can’t because we have corporate propaganda news outlets that will work tirelessly to frame this “new FDR” as a fascist communist racist woke elite conman.

            Pick your outlet and that will determine the words chosen to disparage them.

            Hell just look at the supposed “liberal media” treating Bernie Sanders when he looked to be taking the lead in the primaries, suddenly every story was “Bernie loves Castro! Bernie loves Cuba! Be afraid! He likes communist stuff! Boo! Ahhh! Oh no it’s Bernie!”

            • thesystemisdown@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              Don’t forget the low blow campaign tactic of the “Bernie Bros” - and how I cannot be a feminist if I don’t cast my vote for Clinton. I couldn’t believe how biased NPR was in their coverage and framing of that primary. It caused me to stop being a supporter.

              • Kalysta@lemmy.world
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                6 months ago

                I’m still proud to be considered a 21 year old russian man named Vladimer online!!! (I am not even close to any of those but my twitter replies insist i’m wrong about that actually)

            • Kalysta@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              In addition to this, the government is working to ban any news outlet that disagrees with them. They’re starting with “foreign” outlets like RT and TikTok, but they’ll soon move to anything that doesn’t toe the party line.

              Democracy is dead.

              • Asafum@feddit.nl
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                6 months ago

                I can understand literal propaganda outlets, government run news from countries we know have their orgs run with specific orders to run whatever stories would be an obvious thing to want to curtail here. I used to check into RT and all I’d see are anti-american stories or even using Americans to tell an anti-american government story from someone like Abby Martin. I can’t imagine we’d be getting any news from say North Korean news outlets that isn’t specifically meant to manipulate foreign countries citizens.

                Tiktoc isn’t really news, it’s more like YouTube. If anything I’d say assholes like Zuckerberg lobby the government to kill foreign competitors in our market which is a whole nother issue that also sucks :(

            • return2ozma@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              MSNBC’s Chris Matthews literally said if Bernie was elected him and his rich buddies would be executed in Central Park.

              Chris Matthews’ Wild Rant Connects a Bernie Sanders Win With Public Executions. The MSNBC host talked about socialist-led “executions in Central Park” while tying those fears to Bernie Sanders

              https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/chris-matthews-bernie-sanders-public-executions-949802/

    • gradyp@awful.systems
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      6 months ago

      So, republicans happened.

      Edit- before you tar and feather me, democrats went along. But all of those have been articles of faith in the GOP.

      • cogman@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        I mostly blame Reagan and Nixon. They were the harbingers of modern republican governmental stupidity. Nixon courted the racists out of the democrat party and Regan push dumbass deregulation. Bigotry + being the whipping boys for rich people is basically the only principles republicans stand on today.

      • TurtleJoe@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Civil Rights happened.

        Once it became clear to racist whites that Black Americans would have full access to the social programs that they enjoyed, they decided that they’d rather burn all those social programs to the ground before they’d share them. This is the basis of the modern Republican party, so you weren’t wrong.

        Incidentally, the scenario in this original post was never true for almost all black Americans.

        • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          Aren’t there a lot more social programs today than there were in the period the OP refers to?

    • some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
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      6 months ago

      While all of this is true, I’ll also add that this was an unrepeatable condition: WWII gutted Europe and the US was untouched. All of perks of the past society were part of an unsustainable economic bubble. USA citizens have never quite realized that.

      • NounsAndWords@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        The only part I would disagree with you on is that in the past 80 years productivity has grown by a huge margin, and if that translated into increased wages (as opposed to increased corporate profits) as it once did I think that quality of life would not be so unsustainable.

        • beebarfbadger@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          The richest 1% own almost half the world’s wealth. The hoarders have mostly dug in and ensured that their hoarding is legal, will stop at nothing, is easier than ever, and is well defended and unopposed.

          We live in the joke where the billionaire takes 99 cookies from the table, leaves one and says “Careful, peon, the [member of the minority you dislike] is after your cookie”.

    • danc4498@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      First and foremost you should mention the corporate tax cuts. How can corporations afford consolidation and other malicious shit they do? Their tax bill was cut in half. And their executive income tax rate was cut dramatically.

      Rather than paying their employees, they give massive bonuses to their executives and save the rest for buying out competitors or attracting suitors.

      • cogman@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        It’s not so much the corporate tax rate that did it, it’s capital gains tax (and especially how it’s implemented) that’s the big problem.

        The fact that capital gains isn’t treated as regular income tax creates all sorts of really bad incentives. It means that executives are generally primarily paid in stock which means they are incentivized to push the value of that stock up. And since everyone making those decisions are also primarily paid in stock they’ll authorize things like stock buybacks to boost their own personal wealth.

        5 regulations I’d make to fix this problem.

        1. No executives can be paid with equity.

        2. The maximum salary can not be more than 10x the lowest salary in a company.

        3. Tax capital gains as regular income.

        4. Bring back the 90% top income tax bracket

        5. Introduce a wealth tax. Perhaps 3% for a networth over 1 billion.

        • Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          6 months ago

          100 percent for every dollar over a billion, at least for individuals. No single person needs that much wealth.

    • AA5B@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      While I agree with all of that and more, the world has gotten much more complex over the years. It’s not a bad thing to try to raise the bar on minimum education for everyone.

      Also, for the part of it due to global outsourcing … there’s only so much protectionism can give you without ruining importer/exporters. A better approach is to try to bring a more educated workforce than offered by cheap third world labor

    • Neato@ttrpg.network
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      6 months ago

      Regulations around corporate stock price manipulation have been all but eliminated. Buybacks use to be illegal because they allow a company to artificially inflate their stock completely unrelated to the actual performance of the company.

      In that case, once a company sold stock to investors, they could never recoup it then? The only way for that to happen would be a single person or group organized to buy up a lot to get a controlling stake?

    • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      Effects ofWW2

      Immigration

      Lack of training in general.

      Offshoring.

      People buying loads if crap. Like seriously how many coats did your grandparents have in their adult life. Probably about the same you have in your closet right now, maybe less. Not to mention TV, phones, exotic food.

      The housing market is fucked because land is undervalued.

      Oil? (I might be wrong on this)

      Somethings need to change but there are some things missed here.

      • tb_@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Coats, and devices for that matter, used to be built to last and be repairable. But if your customer consumer never needs to buy another product from you now that wouldn’t make much business sense would it?

        • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          It would if you stole everyone else’s business and that’s what businesses used to compete on.

          But consumers want fast fashion. They want cheap clothing and it doesn’t matter if it only last 5 years instead of 30 because they are going to throw it out after 1 anyway.

          Consumers have forced the hand of businesses in this case. People want cheap more than they want anything else.

  • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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    6 months ago

    I suspect affordable housing is the main thing here that has been stolen.

    The whole mess of the economy is hanging on that one thing. It gobbles up every spare penny. There isn’t enough of it, and the price is only being constrained by how much the highest bidder is prepared to pay. The highest bidders are professional couples, no kids. If that’s not you, you ain’t getting shit.

    As a wise man once sang, “build fuckin’ houses everywhere, millions of the cunts”.

  • FritzGman@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    The message was lost with the example chosen.

    TL;DR - the world sucks for most people nowadays who want to buy a house.

    The idea was that at one point in America, a single earner could afford to buy a home and upgrade the quality of their life if they:

    • work hard
    • had a decent job
    • saved money
    • did not procreate themselves into poverty

    Now, even with two-earner families, it is not enough to afford even a basic starter home without being house poor and in debt for the entirety of your life without ever really “owning” anything (other than the payments). The reason for this change in home ownership experience is what is always hotly debated.

    Those with general wealth or an entrepreneurial spirit will argue that it is still possible. The working class who just wants to do a job, earn a paycheck and leave work behind at the end of the day will disagree. The poor worry more about how to pay their bills at the end of the month and still feed themselves to worry about a house.

    There are a lot of factors in my opinion on what has changed to make it so hard today but no reason greater to me than when a house became an investment instrument instead of a place to raise a family. Something left to your heirs to give them a leg up in their future and that was how upward mobility worked. However, now that a house is not just a home but an investment tool, more and more people are finding the “American dream” is no longer achievable.

    How the value of a house was derived hasn’t really changed all that much. What has changed is how much that value is. It used to be that a single earner making 100k a year in a big city could afford to buy a home and with more kids (aka tax breaks) could afford to upgrade homes from the starter home to one in the suburbs. Then came the two-earner households. People could afford more so the real estate industry started charging more for the same things and people paid it … because they could. The single earner was left behind because two incomes will always be more than one.

    Then came the real estate get rich craze. Those modern families with two working adults and positive cash flow just waiting to be … (oh wait, that’s the infomercial sales pitch). There was money to be made for little to no effort. Just buy a property, charge someone rent and make sure that your income was greater than your expenses. Boom! That’s it. Sit at home watching TV while your bank account gets rich. The two-earner family was now getting squeezed out by competition from the small investor. This also drove up the price of homes because the investor was willing to spend more if they thought they could charge more for the rental. The two-earner families now had to shell out more to buy or stay a renter because they could no longer afford to buy. Pretty cool business model where you can create your own customer base.

    As is typical, it wasn’t long before real estate corporations started to muscle in on the business as there was money to be made; especially with the deep pockets of bankruptcy protected corporate entities that could speculate on property values going up without worrying about losses. They also started exercising local political and financial influence over zoning and construction laws to ensure opportunity and property values would go their way. The small investors started to get pushed to the side and all the while, home prices kept going up (and inventory going down). Since profits must always go up, these so called developers started to decrease the actual size of the living space to squeeze more profits from the same properties. The original shrinkflation. That’s how you ended up with shoebox sized apartments in big cities.

    Finally, we come to modern day times, where publicly traded companies like the Zillow and Redfins of the world buy up whole markets in an effort to control supply and pricing. Real estate is unaffordable to most and the rich buy properties with no intention of using it for living. Instead, they use them as tax shelters for their wealth (tax deductible real estate investment trusts (REITs), 1031 exchanges, depreciation, and mortgage interest payments). Corporate shareholder interests also demand that housing costs keep rising regardless of the impact. What impact is that you say?

    People are forced to rent, delay starting a family and find other ways to make money besides working for a living. Some try to do it through investments in the stock market where there are always more individual investor losers than there are winners. The same place the Zillows and Redfins of the world go to get their money so they can afford to try and manipulate said markets you can no longer afford to buy in. If you ask me, this is capitalism at its finest so long as you are on the right side of the financial wall. If your main focus in life is not to make money, then you will be supporting someone who does make it their focus. Welcome to modern serfdom.

    “Serfdom, condition in medieval Europe in which a tenant farmer was bound to a hereditary plot of land and to the will of his landlord.” - Encyclopedia Brittanica

  • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    I’ve pointed this out before-

    On TV in the 1980s, Tom and Roseanne were out of work constantly, but they owned a house and they never lost it.

    On TV in the 1980s, Al Bundy supported his housewife and two kids on a shoe salesman’s salary.

    You know what the criticism was? It wasn’t that they owned a house. It was “their house is too big for what they make.”

    I don’t remember anyone thinking it was ridiculous that Al Bundy was a homeowner. Because of course he would own a home.

    Even renting and even in the 90s… no one said that it would be impossible to live in Manhattan and work in a cafe like on Friends. The criticism was that the apartment was too big. The idea that it was something you could do was not in question.

    Yes, it’s all TV and it’s all fantasy, but the public reaction to it should show you something.

    • The Picard Maneuver@lemmy.worldOP
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      6 months ago

      Because of course he would own a home

      This hits hard. It was pretty much accepted that as long as you generally had your life together enough to work a full time job, you could save up and buy a home.

    • darkpanda@lemmy.ca
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      6 months ago

      Simpsons did it too. That was part of Frank Grimes’ (Or Grimey, as he liked to be called) criticism of Homer.

      • shasta@lemm.ee
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        6 months ago

        I should hope that a technician at a nuclear power plant could afford that house. Sure, he was an idiot, but he still did the job.

  • 100_kg_90_de_belin @feddit.it
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    6 months ago

    I would be content with not having the housing market cannibalized by AirBnB and real estate companies, a paycheck that isn’t eaten up by greedflation and a passable healthcare (I live in Europe, so we have public healthcare, at least nominally).

    • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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      6 months ago

      Sure. We’ll just have to make sure that women and minorities can’t get good jobs, and we’ve gotta get most of Europe leveled by war. Then we also need a wildly progressive president

      But then it’s easy.

      • fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de
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        6 months ago

        Also anything electrical beyond heating this thing or spinning that thing needs to go.

        Imagine having a lucrative career as a comptometer operator.

    • FriendBesto@lemmy.ml
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      6 months ago

      We can’t. Unless you want another world war, kill tens of millions, and destroy most of Western Europe, have Nazis, and nuke a country. Not to mention billions less on the planet.

      This is what eventually pushed for the Marshall Plan that did help Europe and fuel the reconstruction that followed in the USA and elsewhere. Like the boomers lived through a period of time that was quite far, far from ‘normal.’ Only because it happened it does not mean that it was historically normal, nor does the remove the nuances of the time period, both the so-called good along with the horrible.

      Problem seems to be that the lady on OP’s post has the Historical knowledge and nuance of a toddler. Is that the average education system in the USA? Because if so, holy shit.

      • buddascrayon@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Back then there was this thing called the marginal tax rate which taxed the extremely wealthy 90%.

        Current proposals for a marginal tax rate on anyone making over 10 million dollars is 70% and the billionaires of this country are using their wealth to convince the stupidest of the lower classes that such a thing will hurt them and not just the billionaires.

  • The dogspaw @midwest.social
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    6 months ago

    This was never the norm it’s a myth that never actually existed even when it was supposedly the norm most people struggled

    • kaffiene@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      It was in NZ when I was a kid and I know the US had always had a higher standard of living than us

  • fidodo@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    When it really hit me was when I found out how much my girlfriend’s parents paid for their house a few miles from the beach in San Diego on blue collar salaries. It was 1/5th the cost adjusted for inflation that it is now. If houses were still that price I could easily afford 2 on my salary, but instead I can’t afford 1

    • SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de
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      6 months ago

      It was 1/5th the cost adjusted for inflation that it is now

      That tells you more or less how much the official inflation numbers are doctored.

      • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        I don’t get it how this post is behing downvoted: understating Offical Inflation mathematically yields bigger Official GDP numbers due to how the Offical Inflation is used to deflate Nominal GDP to produce the supposedly inflation-free Real GDP which is the official one.

        It doesn’t take much to find politicians boasting about growing GDP, so there is huge political pressure to make that number high in ways which aren’t obvious (and tweaking the basket of good and services used to calculate inflation is quite a subtle way to do it). It’s not by chance that some countries (for example the UK) some years ago - basically since the house price bubble in there started going - even started using and Inflation Index that doesn’t include house prices (I’m not quite sure if that’s the case in the US).

        It also fits the observeable effects: a salary in the 2020s that can barelly pay for a small appartment and food, which using the inflation indexes is inflation adjusted to produce a supposedly equivalent salary in the 60s, yields something that back then paid for a house, a car and all the expenses of family of 5, something that can only be explained by the inflation adjustment being wrong (if it was right, it would roughly buy the same now and back then) hence the inflation indexes are wrong and over the years have been much more wrong on the side of understating inflation than on the other side (and always erring in the same direction cannot be explained by the normal error in the method).

        Mind you, this is not massive rigging of inflation with 10%+ “adjustments”, it’s more 1% here, 0.5% there, which over decades adds up to a 100%+ cummulative error.

  • wildcardology@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    I’m not from the US. And I’m amazed how my dad put 4 of his kids through college during the late 80s and early 90s and here I am struggling with just 1 kid.

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    I worked the factories in the late eighties, most had spouses that worked, most rented or bought a single wide, we all barely scraped by and were just a disaster away from being broke broke.

    Sure you had a few, and I emphasize a few, guys who made decent bank, but they were specialists and most people were clamoring to be their right hand person to take over when they retired or quit.

    That wasn’t the bulk of us.

    We didn’t own that comparable sized house.

    We didn’t take vacations, we visited family in another state.

    We didn’t drive a nice or a lot of times even decent cars.

    We on the line didn’t support a family of five comfortably, we all fucking struggled to make ends meet but we could keep modest for on the table and a roof over our heads.

    That family of five on a high schoolers education was always a bit of a myth but I will say it was certainly better back then than today, at least there was abundant factory work that paid better than the minimum.

    • stringere@leminal.space
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      That’s because the meme references a time earlier than the 1980s. 1950-1970 or so would be the bubble of time where this was still possible. Union declines up to 1980 aided Reagonomics in thoroughly fucking everyone from middle incomes down.

      • cheesepotatoes@lemmy.world
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        Ya, more like 50’s - 70’s. A huge amount of factory work in the US had already been offshored or started offshoring in the 80’s

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            I don’t think anyone promised 2500 square feet and 2 cars in the garage?

            That said my parents were both government employees their entire career. Made it up into the gs 11-13 area which isn’t too hard to do. 2,500 square foot house, 2 cars, 2 kids playing travel sports, and a deck that was probably another 200 square feet. That was the early 90’s in Maryland, where all the civil servants live. Not some remote area of Montana. They’ve also said there’s no way they could buy that house with the gs pay charts and housing prices from about 2005 on.

            So even your exaggerated example was not out of reach.

    • bitwaba@lemmy.world
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      Yeah, things have always been tough on the working class no matter how you slice it.

      It used to be when a man’s wife had a baby, all he got was a free beer after work with the boys before he went to see his wife in the hospital.

      We’ve come a long way, but we’ve got much farther to go. The 50s-70s aren’t some kind of magical economic utopia. Backwards is not forwards.

    • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      I would say a complete myth but they didn’t have cellphones, everyone didn’t have their own room, etc. it was a very different lifestyle.

      Grandpa had five kids, the girls had one room, the boys had the other. Three in one room. Two in the other.

      Everyone wore hand me downs and my grandpa worked a second job part time.

  • Pizza_Rat@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    One major factor: women entered the workforce. Labor supply doubled, and two incomes per household became normalized. Our current economic system fails to account for the work of raising children which was implicitely built into the “traditional family” model.

    That’s a double whammy for workers. The value of labor is halved. Both partners are expected to work to achieve a similar standard of living. And, without one partner doing household and child-rearing labor, those costs are borne by the workers.

    • TurtleJoe@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Cite your sources on this economic theory of yours, that is if you can find any that didn’t come out of some MRA’s ass

      • Clent@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Yeah, the entire premise requires that women entering the workforce didn’t cause any new jobs to come into existence.

        Childcare alone is a huge industry.

        Both working parents often means two vehicles, that’s an increase in manufacturing.

        It also ignores that women were already part of the workforce but their options were restricted.

        Two household incomes exist because it’s the only way to survive the past 40 years of wage stagflation. We have an increase in multi-generational households because two incomes is no longer enough.

  • SexWithDogs@infosec.pub
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    6 months ago

    Poverty in first world countries is a new phenomenon that has only emerged in the past 10 to 20 years.

    Sarcasm aside… yes, the working class is still being exploited. It didn’t take Twitter tier propaganda to say it.

  • Yaztromo@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    It was never going to be possible for the US to maintain that kind of standard of living forever. It worked out in the 1950s through to the 1970s because WWII left huge swaths of industry and agriculture in Europe and Asia devastated — it took decades^0 for affected countries to rebuild. Meanwhile, North American based manufacturing soared and became the envy of the world — everyone bought form North America, and anyone with no particular skill set who was looking for a job could get a good Union job in any number of factories.

    But that couldn’t last forever. There was no policy the US Government could have taken (other than perpetual war against everyone else?) that would have kept the rest of the world from re-industrializing. Japan, China, Germany, Italy, France, and the UK (amongst others^1) were able to re-industrialize to a point where the US suddenly had competition again — and while the US could have some competitive advantage against some of its more Western allies due to size, they weren’t going to be able to keep that kind of lead forever against China, Taiwan, and Japan. The world wound up with more capacity than there was a market for, and so the winners were the ones that could do the job the cheapest (as is the way in a competitive marketplace).

    It was an anomaly that brought the kind of prosperity the US experienced in the post-WWII years; you can’t recreate that today (as it’s only due to the limitations of the technologies at the time that North America was broadly spared any destruction during the war years — in the post WWII nuclear/ballistic missile era that wouldn’t be the case anymore).


    ^0 — there are still areas in Europe that are uninhabitable (and unfarmable) today due to WWI and WWII.
    ^1 — it did somewhat help that the Soviet Union re-industrialized under Communism; the generally closed nature of their economy, combined with the huge inefficiencies of most of its industries under centralized control didn’t really challenge or threaten the US’s economic might.

    • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      You ignore the incredibly high cost of the Vietnam War. At the height, America was dropping three Hiroshimas a day on the jungle. US plants were working 24/7 to supply the steel, which meant German and Japan had to build their own plants. When the Arab Oil boycott hit, Detroit was doubly screwed, because Toyota and Volkswagen already had small gas sippers ready to go.

      America could have regained it’s edge after Vietnam ended, but Reagan’s tax cuts and deregulation let the wealthiest build vast fortunes without doing anything to save the ‘Rust Belt.’

      • Yaztromo@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        You accuse me of ignoring the high cost of Vietnam — but ultimately your own argument supports mine. Toyota and Volkswagen couldn’t have challenged the American automotive hegemony in the 1970s had it not been for the re-industrialization of Japan and Germany that allowed this to happen in the first place. The US got “stuck” in a 1950s mentality (cheap overseas oil, no significant international industrial competition), and re-industrialized countries that 20 years prior couldn’t compete had built up enough that they could.

        The US wouldn’t have regained its edge even without Vietnam. At best, it would have slowed the slide — but ultimately every other country on earth was also going to grow its economy, and the re-industrialization that happened in countries with much cheaper costs of living (and yes, in some cases with regressive political regimes that worked to keep costs down) was always going to happen anyway, and no amount of US protectionism was ever going to prevent it from happening. As I pointed out elsewhere in this post (as one example), Australia in the 1950s bought the vast majority of its automobiles from US companies — but now they buy primarily from Asian manufacturers. The US lost that business because those other manufacturers focuses on cost and quality — and it’s not likely getting it back anytime soon. Multiply that by virtually every industry in existence today, and it’s not hard to see that the 50s and 60s were a special economic anomaly that won’t likely ever happen again.

        • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          The US wouldn’t have regained its edge even without Vietnam.

          We can’t say exactly what would or wouldn’t have happened. What we can say for certain is that the war build up allowed the steel industry to make a lot of money off of old plants.

          Jimmy Carter wanted to end America’s oil dependency in 1976. He installed solar panels on the White House as a symbolic way of saying we were going to get off the oil addiction. Reagan tore those things down and kept us dependant on oil.

          • Yaztromo@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            We can say, because the things you list are almost completely independent of the fact that Germany, Japan, France (to a certain extent), and later China all made major advancements in their industrial capabilities post-war, and they (along with countries within their geographic and political spheres of influence) didn’t have to buy from the US anymore.

            Would a 1970s and 1980s green energy revolution in the US have been a good thing that would have benefitted the United States? Most likely yes (and everyone else for that matter) — but again, that doesn’t change the fact that the countries left with minimal industrial output post WWII were going to rebuild that output. Individually many of them my not have surpassed the US (and may never do so), but in aggregate they (especially China) have reduced the US’s near sole-source influence they had on the supply chain for manufactured goods in the 50s and 60s. This was always going to be outside the US’s control and ability to change in any significant manner — they were always going to go from “virtually no competition” to “competition with virtually everyone” in the post-war years.

            • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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              6 months ago

              So, you’re telling me you know exactly what would have happened if Humphrey had won in 1968 and had pushed for a massive increase in NASA’s budget, resulting in a vast leap ahead in US technology?

              The US ceding manufacturing to China et al was a political choice by Reagan and the GOP. They wanted to destroy the Unions, and were happy to let cities like Detroit implode.