It’s not a rumor, that was their official announced plan, or rather small parts of north gaza. The conspiracy is that they want all of Gaza which they didn’t say, but is pushed by pro-hamas supporters.
I’ve only point out what the IDF had said was their plan. Some Orthodox zionist have been calling for all the territory of West bank and Gaza to be theirs, but they are a tiny minority.
Did you see the article? Something like half of the Prime Minister’s cabinet was at a rally celebrating that they’re doing this.
Here’s the thing: I can recognize that where people stand on this sort of thing is very hard to accurately gauge in the moment. It’s as likely that I’m overestimating the support for this plan as it is that you’re underestimating it
With that said, I have a strong motivation to rationalize that these people do not represent the center of public opinion. I really want that to be true. But as someone who has followed Israeli news and politics from before October 7th, and has been following it even more closely since, from the most on-the-ground sources I can find, I heard a phrase from a Lebanese Palestinian podcaster that has struck with me for months. He said,
“What we are witnessing is the Smotrich-ization of the Israeli public.”
That’s in reference to Israeli Finance minister and self-described fascist Bezalel Smotrich. I think it’s true. To my horror, the Israeli center and even left are far more amenable to the full ethnic cleansing of Israel-Palestine than any time in my lifetime. I could be wrong. But I think you should ask yourself what you think you should be doing if I’m not.
It’s as likely that I’m overestimating the support for this plan as it is that you’re underestimating it
Indeed. It’s hard to make a clear assumption on how Israel’s geopolitical agenda plays out, and your assumption maybe more correct than mine.
To my horror, the Israeli center and even left are far more amenable to the full ethnic cleansing of Israel-Palestine than any time in my lifetime.
The origin of the Palestinian - Israel conflict is of statehood and governmental control, not ethnicities. Arabs who have never called themselves Palestinians but have lived in the state of Israel since it’s founding have as much claim to the region as Palestinians themselves and are of the same ethnicity. In other words even if Israel remove all Palestinians from the regions they want, it will never be considered ethnic cleansing by the rest of the world, because Palestinians isn’t an ethnical identity, it’s a political identity.
I think the last part of what you said – about them not being an ethnicity – is unhelpful.
I don’t agree with the take, but I don’t want to get into a debate over semantics. I just want to try and get people thinking – from many different perspectives – about what is happening and what each of us need to do to stop it.
Millions of people are at risk of dying of deliberate starvation. Millions are being pushed off their land. The region is being destabilized, Jews and Muslims worldwide are facing increasing antisemitism due to a complex set of reasons, Israelis are facing a rapid erosion in civil liberties… and we need to say NO. We need to interrupt all of these.
We need to demand peace, we need to force from power leaders who pursue agendas designed to escalate conflicts because its in their interests, we need to halt the logistics operations that allow for people to be caged and starved and blown up and tortured…
I think you and I may disagree about a whole bunch of terms to apply, but I just want to find the common ground. Particularly among liberal zionists, because it’s breaking my heart to see so many liberal zionists freezing up at a moment of crisis and allowing the religious zionist movement to take charge. It doesn’t have to be that way, we all just need to find courage and act.
I’m not looking to cast blame or pick fights. As long as you and anyone else isn’t actively supporting population transfers or a single Jewish state displacing Palestinians from river to sea, I just want to find where we agree – stop the war, stop the march of global fascism in Israel, America, and every where else – and get to work.
Millions of people are at risk of dying of deliberate starvation. Millions are being pushed off their land. The region is being destabilized, Jews and Muslims worldwide are facing increasing antisemitism due to a complex set of reasons, Israelis are facing a rapid erosion in civil liberties… and we need to say NO. We need to interrupt all of these.
Indeed. I agree globally the world need to find a way to end this impending genocide of the Palestinian people.
We need to demand peace, we need to force from power leaders who pursue agendas designed to escalate conflicts because its in their interests, we need to halt the logistics operations that allow for people to be caged and starved and blown up and tortured…
The problem is for us to demand peace, we need to have a solution that most people would agree with, including the majority of Israel and Palestinians. What would that solution be at this point in the conflict?
First, I challenge the assumption that I have to provide a credible peace plan in order to demand an end to violence. The right-wing of the Zionist movement has made dismantling any infrastructure to work towards peace a key project, and they’ve been very successful. It was because of their deliberate actions that we have no good options, so I will not accept a lack of good options as a reason to delay. Those guys spent years fucking this situation up, and I demand they get to work unfucking it.
Second, I think the honest answer is that we design a peace process and we start on it, even if it’s a long one. Carl Sagan famously observed “To make an apple pie from scratch, first you must create the universe.” We don’t have a partner for peace? Well then get to work creating partners for peace. The Palestinians have been facing tightening restrictions for years intended to cut off the development of internal political thought and leaders. Stop doing that. Demand that they get the right to say and think and debate things that Israel doesn’t like. Build infrascturucture to make a peace plan possible and set a roadmap: first meeting this year, with goals to develop the boundaries of the first stage of the peace process, with an understanding that the first step is not going to be the creation of a new state or anything similar in scope. Increase the complexity of negotiations and their goals each year on a ten-year timeline toward imposing a plan meant to last for ten more years, with a plan to reassess after that period and decide whether to continue on the same plan or make major changes. Something like this.
If it’s just to move troops around, why dig trenches and have a huge no-man’s-land along the road? It’s kinda like they’re building Berlin wall v2. We’ll see if they’ll allow 1.5 million displaced Gaza populations to return to the northern part of Gaza later.
Since 2007, Hamas has been the de facto administration in Gaza and has ruled with an iron fist. However, Israel has never relinquished its overall control of the territory, and the UN considers Gaza still occupied. Israeli forces, in coordination with Egypt, which signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, have kept Gaza enclosed by land, air and sea.
People, food, fuel, internet, power and water cannot leave or enter Gaza without permission from Israel. Egypt has a land crossing in the south, Rafah, but in practice, the military regime in Cairo – an enemy of Hamas and ally with Israel’s most powerful backer, the US – acts as an enforcer of the blockade.
Israel says the blockade is for its own security, citing repeated Hamas rocket attacks and incursions. But UN experts say the blockade, and intense bombing during five wars on Gaza, amounts to collective punishment on civilians, a war crime under international law.
I disagree with the conclusions of this pro Hamas nonsense. You have all the evidence right there.
Since 2007 Hamas rules Gaza with “an iron fist.”
Ya know stoning “infidels,” assassinating Palestinians who want peace, cancelling all future elections. Nobody is going to miss Hamas when it is killed to the man. It’s a far right Islamist terrorist group and part of the much large pan Islamist movement whose motto is “death to America and death to Israel.” The singular difference between Hamas and ISIS is that they disagree as to who should be in charge of the world, Iran, the Syrian caliphate, or a new caliphate in the Levant after they literally genocide all the Jews.
And don’t bring Egypt into this.
Egypt doesn’t want terrorists using its border to smuggle weapons and fighters, either.
Food goes through. The mass starvation everyone has been warning of for five months hasn’t happened. The daily death toll is dropping like a stone.
“UN experts”
may sound authoritative and conclusive to you but I went to school with some of these people and know how shitty they are with facts and reasoning when they get emotional, which is what Hamas counts on. They should surrender. Period.
There won’t be a lasting ceasefire until it stops fighting and by fighting I of course mean targeting Jewish civilians and using Gaza and everyone in it as its personal suit of armor.
All this shit you have to say about the evil Jewish empire is only to say that Israel must stop defending itself. That’s why for all your links you cannot give a rational explanation for Hamas’s plan on October 7 that didn’t end in a massive civilian death toll. 30,000 is awful but Hamas decided with the consent of Gaza to put every one of them in harms way and then rolled the dice with their lives.
If you stopped constantly dehumanizing palestinians for a second, maybe you’d recognize Hamas began due to the terrible material conditions of Occupation, and has the goal of ending the occupation. Maybe you’d even recognize collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Hamas is very different from ISIS, but they both were born out of Terrorism from Israel and the US respectively. Hamas wants an end to the Apartheid, not genocide. That claim is both untrue, and holds no weight when Israel is currently engaging in genocide. This is about the state of Israel being founded on ethnic cleansing and it’s most recent ethnic cleansing campaign. Not Jewish people, stop being antisemitic by thinking they’re the same.
Hamas in its early days, according to former Israeli officials, was seen by the government of Israel as a counterweight to the PLO. Israel supported Hamas as a way to break the PLO’s hold on the region. Retired official Avner Cohen, who worked in Gaza in the 1990s and oversaw religious affairs in the region, told the WSJ in 2009, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation."
In the 2006 election, Ismail Haniyeh led Hamas as the head of Hamas’ parliamentary bloc, while the president of the Palestinian Authority (PA), Mahmoud Abbas, led Fatah, as well as the PLO and Palestinian National Authority (PNA). (Haniyeh is now chairman of Hamas’ political bureau, and Abbas remains in his positions, as of this writing.) With Haniyeh at the helm, Hamas won around 44% of the votes across the region, according to a 2006 ABC News report, a total that secured a majority of seats in the legislature under election rules.
And in the backdrop of the 2006 election were geographic and political divides between Gaza and the West Bank. Contrary to what Bennett claimed, Israel restricted Palestinians from moving in and out of Gaza, as well as between the strip and the West Bank, since at least the 1990s, after the first Palestinian Intifada, or uprising, according to Al Jazeera. In addition to Gaza’s borders, the Israeli government controlled its coastline and airspace, allowing for military incursions into the territory, and, in 2007, established the blockade on goods and people that still exists as of this writing.
Okay we agree on that. You break it you buy it, as solid rationale as any. I think they not only pay but also have to administer the reconstruction, and that in addition to the work of rebuilding Gaza’s physical structures and infrastructure, Israel must rebuild the institutions of Gaza, free of Hamas corruption and Iranian influence.
So the rumor that Israel wants to take over the northern part of Gaza has finally come true?
It’s not a rumor, that was their official announced plan, or rather small parts of north gaza. The conspiracy is that they want all of Gaza which they didn’t say, but is pushed by pro-hamas supporters.
I think you’re either misinformed or spreading disinformation:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/12-ministers-call-to-resettle-gaza-encourage-gazans-to-leave-at-jubilant-conference/
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/religious-zionist-party-mp-urges-government-to-occupy-gaza-annex-to-israel-demolish-all-homes/3099741
I’ve only point out what the IDF had said was their plan. Some Orthodox zionist have been calling for all the territory of West bank and Gaza to be theirs, but they are a tiny minority.
Did you see the article? Something like half of the Prime Minister’s cabinet was at a rally celebrating that they’re doing this.
Here’s the thing: I can recognize that where people stand on this sort of thing is very hard to accurately gauge in the moment. It’s as likely that I’m overestimating the support for this plan as it is that you’re underestimating it
With that said, I have a strong motivation to rationalize that these people do not represent the center of public opinion. I really want that to be true. But as someone who has followed Israeli news and politics from before October 7th, and has been following it even more closely since, from the most on-the-ground sources I can find, I heard a phrase from a Lebanese Palestinian podcaster that has struck with me for months. He said,
That’s in reference to Israeli Finance minister and self-described fascist Bezalel Smotrich. I think it’s true. To my horror, the Israeli center and even left are far more amenable to the full ethnic cleansing of Israel-Palestine than any time in my lifetime. I could be wrong. But I think you should ask yourself what you think you should be doing if I’m not.
Then: do that.
Indeed. It’s hard to make a clear assumption on how Israel’s geopolitical agenda plays out, and your assumption maybe more correct than mine.
The origin of the Palestinian - Israel conflict is of statehood and governmental control, not ethnicities. Arabs who have never called themselves Palestinians but have lived in the state of Israel since it’s founding have as much claim to the region as Palestinians themselves and are of the same ethnicity. In other words even if Israel remove all Palestinians from the regions they want, it will never be considered ethnic cleansing by the rest of the world, because Palestinians isn’t an ethnical identity, it’s a political identity.
I think the last part of what you said – about them not being an ethnicity – is unhelpful.
I don’t agree with the take, but I don’t want to get into a debate over semantics. I just want to try and get people thinking – from many different perspectives – about what is happening and what each of us need to do to stop it.
Millions of people are at risk of dying of deliberate starvation. Millions are being pushed off their land. The region is being destabilized, Jews and Muslims worldwide are facing increasing antisemitism due to a complex set of reasons, Israelis are facing a rapid erosion in civil liberties… and we need to say NO. We need to interrupt all of these.
We need to demand peace, we need to force from power leaders who pursue agendas designed to escalate conflicts because its in their interests, we need to halt the logistics operations that allow for people to be caged and starved and blown up and tortured…
I think you and I may disagree about a whole bunch of terms to apply, but I just want to find the common ground. Particularly among liberal zionists, because it’s breaking my heart to see so many liberal zionists freezing up at a moment of crisis and allowing the religious zionist movement to take charge. It doesn’t have to be that way, we all just need to find courage and act.
I’m not looking to cast blame or pick fights. As long as you and anyone else isn’t actively supporting population transfers or a single Jewish state displacing Palestinians from river to sea, I just want to find where we agree – stop the war, stop the march of global fascism in Israel, America, and every where else – and get to work.
Indeed. I agree globally the world need to find a way to end this impending genocide of the Palestinian people.
The problem is for us to demand peace, we need to have a solution that most people would agree with, including the majority of Israel and Palestinians. What would that solution be at this point in the conflict?
I have two answers for this.
First, I challenge the assumption that I have to provide a credible peace plan in order to demand an end to violence. The right-wing of the Zionist movement has made dismantling any infrastructure to work towards peace a key project, and they’ve been very successful. It was because of their deliberate actions that we have no good options, so I will not accept a lack of good options as a reason to delay. Those guys spent years fucking this situation up, and I demand they get to work unfucking it.
Second, I think the honest answer is that we design a peace process and we start on it, even if it’s a long one. Carl Sagan famously observed “To make an apple pie from scratch, first you must create the universe.” We don’t have a partner for peace? Well then get to work creating partners for peace. The Palestinians have been facing tightening restrictions for years intended to cut off the development of internal political thought and leaders. Stop doing that. Demand that they get the right to say and think and debate things that Israel doesn’t like. Build infrascturucture to make a peace plan possible and set a roadmap: first meeting this year, with goals to develop the boundaries of the first stage of the peace process, with an understanding that the first step is not going to be the creation of a new state or anything similar in scope. Increase the complexity of negotiations and their goals each year on a ten-year timeline toward imposing a plan meant to last for ten more years, with a plan to reassess after that period and decide whether to continue on the same plan or make major changes. Something like this.
Yeah just like when they said they were going to starve and terror bomb everyone in Gaza and then did exactly that.
The IDF, that very reliable source (/S), says they’ll only use it to move troops around.
Well if the road is only for troops then I suppose any Israeli on it will be a legitimate target moving forward.
Well attacks on the military (troops and installations) have been described as terrorism, so there’s that too.
If it’s just to move troops around, why dig trenches and have a huge no-man’s-land along the road? It’s kinda like they’re building Berlin wall v2. We’ll see if they’ll allow 1.5 million displaced Gaza populations to return to the northern part of Gaza later.
Why wait and see when you can just take their word at face value? They won’t.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-voluntary-emigration-gazans-2023-11-14/
Yeah and it shouldn’t. Gaza is a lawless place. There is no legitimate government there. Somebody has to rebuild it. Who’s going to do it?
Gaza is under control by Israel’s Blockade
I disagree with the conclusions of this pro Hamas nonsense. You have all the evidence right there.
Ya know stoning “infidels,” assassinating Palestinians who want peace, cancelling all future elections. Nobody is going to miss Hamas when it is killed to the man. It’s a far right Islamist terrorist group and part of the much large pan Islamist movement whose motto is “death to America and death to Israel.” The singular difference between Hamas and ISIS is that they disagree as to who should be in charge of the world, Iran, the Syrian caliphate, or a new caliphate in the Levant after they literally genocide all the Jews.
And don’t bring Egypt into this.
Food goes through. The mass starvation everyone has been warning of for five months hasn’t happened. The daily death toll is dropping like a stone.
may sound authoritative and conclusive to you but I went to school with some of these people and know how shitty they are with facts and reasoning when they get emotional, which is what Hamas counts on. They should surrender. Period.
There won’t be a lasting ceasefire until it stops fighting and by fighting I of course mean targeting Jewish civilians and using Gaza and everyone in it as its personal suit of armor.
All this shit you have to say about the evil Jewish empire is only to say that Israel must stop defending itself. That’s why for all your links you cannot give a rational explanation for Hamas’s plan on October 7 that didn’t end in a massive civilian death toll. 30,000 is awful but Hamas decided with the consent of Gaza to put every one of them in harms way and then rolled the dice with their lives.
If you stopped constantly dehumanizing palestinians for a second, maybe you’d recognize Hamas began due to the terrible material conditions of Occupation, and has the goal of ending the occupation. Maybe you’d even recognize collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Hamas is very different from ISIS, but they both were born out of Terrorism from Israel and the US respectively. Hamas wants an end to the Apartheid, not genocide. That claim is both untrue, and holds no weight when Israel is currently engaging in genocide. This is about the state of Israel being founded on ethnic cleansing and it’s most recent ethnic cleansing campaign. Not Jewish people, stop being antisemitic by thinking they’re the same.
People Claim a Majority of Palestinians in Gaza Elected Hamas — Here’s Why It Isn’t That Simple
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
Hamas was born out of pan Islamism. Israel didn’t invent it. It’s hundreds of years old.
Not the fucking Israelis.
They expect everyone else to fix what they broke and protect them, while they mouth the hands that feed.
How long would they last without big daddy USA?
Okay then who?
Who what?
Edit: Nvm, I thought this was another conversation.
Israel should pay obviously.
They broke, they pay.
Okay we agree on that. You break it you buy it, as solid rationale as any. I think they not only pay but also have to administer the reconstruction, and that in addition to the work of rebuilding Gaza’s physical structures and infrastructure, Israel must rebuild the institutions of Gaza, free of Hamas corruption and Iranian influence.