- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
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It’s worth recalling when support for the Chechen war was low, Putin initiated a campaign of apartment building bombings in 1999.
Some chatter that there were around 8 shooters, and they walked into the hall and immediately shot 40-50, result might end up with over 100 killed. One of the shooters has allegedly been arrested, ISIS-K or Imarat Kavkaz would be under srict instructions NOT to be taken alive. There’s considerable dueling narratives right now
No matter who is actually responsible - Putin will probably blame Ukraine
It looks like US Intelligence warned of this attack in early March.
People at the venue lost all phone and Internet connectivity right prior to the attack. Jamming was being used.
The entire city of Moscow is now on lockdown.
ISIS, through its outlet al-Amaq, just claimed responsibility for the terror attack in Moscow tonight.
People were posting videos while the attack was happening. Where are you getting this information about “jamming” from? Nearby traffic distribution nodes were likely overloaded which resulted in degraded performance of Telegram and VK services. This is something to be expected when thousands or even millions of people start sending messages all at once, trying to figure out what’s happening to their friends and family.
All the videos I’ve seen are CCTV which were distributed well after the fact. channel 12 from Russia reported the jamming. I’m aware of what a mobile network will do on overload since I used to design and deploy them. It doesn’t quite work that way.
Telegram channels such as Baza, Ostorozhno Novosti and Vazhnye Istorii were posting eyewitness statements and phone footage as early as 20:15 Moscow time and throughout the event. There was no jamming. Degraded performance was reported for Telegram and VK. Whether the issue was with the local access points or Telegram’s data centers is not clear.
Just because cell networks are jammed doesn’t take the whole Internet down. Wifi sourced from copper and fiber networks will continue to work.
And Jamming isn’t some sort of scifi superpower, plenty of devices will connect despite the attempts to jam. Those in closest proximity to the jamming source would be most affected.
So don’t make leap that “videos getting published to Telegram” = “No jamming was occurring”, because one doesn’t prove the other.
Again, what’s the source that the internet was jammed? I haven’t heard anyone mentioning that, including witnesses on the place.
But the burden of proof is on you. At this time, you are simply spreading an unfounded conspiracy theory.
Like any russian media can be trusted.
You didn’t answer the question.
Where are you getting this information about “jamming” from?
This is the first time I’m hearing this.
It’s in the text. Read it again.
In what text?
In. the. text. he. typed.
Whatchu want, a reliable source?
Trust him, brah.
An excerpt from the article:
In October 2002, Chechen militants took about 800 people hostage at a Moscow theater. Two days later, Russian special forces stormed the building and 129 hostages and 41 Chechen fighters died, most of them from effects of narcotic gas Russian forces use to subdue the attackers.
Those are two separate events…
The false flag apartment bombings were carried out by actual Russian security services - not Chechen assets, or militants.
On an
relatedunrelated note,some of Russian agents who took part were comically stupid.If you aren’t aware of the Sims vs SIM card mix-up, do yourself a favor and look it up.Edit: as pointed out below, the Sims vs SIM card was not part of the 1999 false flag operation, but a more recent one (2022). My bad.
The Sims comedy hour was a separate event from the other two, it was a 2022 attempt to frame Ukraine for terrorism.
They botched one of the apartment building bombings worse than “The Sims card” thing. They had announced one of the bombings before doing the actual bombing.
It’s worth recalling when support for the Chechen war was low, Putin initiated a campaign of apartment building bombings in 1999.
That was the immediate memory. It’s interesting how much truth will be figured out in this current case.
The entire city of Moscow is now on lockdown.
Only public places.
You are wrong on a lot of counts here buddy. May want to take a Valium and leave the geopolitics alone.
I did that on the fly and didn’t make a comment a day after. What counts am I wrong on? Most everything has proven to be true. Thanks for the drug recommendation, are you a doctor?
Such as? Did putin not bomb his own people in the 90s? Did America not warn about this next attack before it happened?
This is nuts. This better not be some bullshit to manufacture consent for war escalation.
Days after Putin’s reelection? Sounds very suspicious indeed.
Remember: no Russian.
Would be suspicious days before his reelection.
A lot has been said about Call of Duty MWII, but if your theory is correct then we’ll have to say that, of all things, its plot was prescient. And i’m not ready for that
As mentioned in another comment, wouldn’t be the first time
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings
Sufficiently advanced remembering resembles precognition
All these things have happened before, and will happen again
Yeah, art often finds inspiration from the world, and since the world can infinitely be sad, plenty of art has gleaned inspiration from it. It’s way more sad when world -> art -> world though, we are doomed to commit our misdeeds repeatedly
Art imitates life imitates art.
I don’t think so. The US actually warned about imminent terror attacks by ISIS in Moscow a few weeks ago.
Yeah at this point it seems pretty clear this is a ISIS terror attack.
That doesn’t mean it wasn’t allowed to happen for other purposes.
From the article:
The official said U.S. intelligence agencies had gathered information in recent weeks that the IS branch was planning an attack in Moscow. He said U.S. officials privately shared the intelligence earlier this month with Russian officials. The official was briefed on the matter but was not authorized to publicly discuss the intelligence information and spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity.
…
The Kremlin didn’t immediately blame anyone for the attack, but some Russian lawmakers were quick to accuse Ukraine and called for ramping up strikes. Hours before the attack, the Russian military l aunched (sic) a sweeping barrage on Ukraine’s power system, crippling the country’s biggest hydroelectric plant and other energy facilities and leaving more than a million people without electricity.
Dmitry Medvedev, deputy head of Russia’s Security Council, said that if Ukraine involvement was proven, all those involved “must be tracked down and killed without mercy, including officials of the state that committed such outrage.”
Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, denied Ukraine involvement.
Has anybody claimed responsibility for this yet? This doesn’t sound like the Ukraine. They hit strategic shit.
Not seeing anything yet but it can be hard to get accurate news reporting from a country that kills subversive journalists and is in a war. I think most are assuming it’s either an internal or external paramilitary group related to the war in Ukraine, or domestic terrorists related to the recent elections, I think targeting a concert is more likely the latter but we’ll see which group takes responsibility if any.
But Russia will immediately blame it on Ukraine and the west anyway lol
Likely despite US intelligence warning about imminent terror attacks in Russia earlier this month.
Maria Zacharova (Kremlin) seems to think the most important thing right now is that the whole world condemns the attack, which I find to be a kind of weird priority since the thing just happened and we have no fucking clue what is going on.
You can still condemn it even if you don’t know exactly who’s behind it.
Absolutely! It wasn’t my intention to insinuate that you cannot. My point is that she was very quick to come out and demand it be done. Of course terror attacks should be condemned. All I’m saying is that the Kremlin has some weird priorities when there’s an ongoing attack. Almost like they’re trying to control the discussion and steer it towards something else.
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Maria Zacharova (Kremlin) seems to think the most important thing right now is that the whole world condemns the attack
nah I don’t condemn anything. Either it was some pro-ukranian group (fair, bring the war to russia!), or more likely, some covert op from the fsb so that this russian cunt in charge can order a new drafting…
It is never fair to murder civilians. I don’t blame Ukraine if there is terrorism and insurgency due to the occupation of eastern Ukraine, that’s firmly Putin’s fault. But that also doesn’t make it ok.
fair, bring the war to russia
ah yes, “bringing war to russia” now means shooting innocents, because responding to terrorism with even more terrorism works so well
gotta fuckin love reddit
gotta fuckin love reddit
this is lemmy.
ah yes, “bringing war to russia” now means shooting innocents, because responding to terrorism with even more terrorism works so well
Yes innocents die in war, thats what happens. It’s cruel, it’s not fair but this can happen if you attack other countries, although I don’t believe that this is caused by ukranians…
Yes innocents die in war, thats what happens. It’s cruel, it’s not fair but this can happen if you attack other countries
I’d love to see you say that if someone gunned down your compatriots. Or better yet, your family. Surely your condescending Realpolitik tone wouldn’t falter, right?
although I don’t believe that this is caused by ukranians…
Neither do I. ISIS has taken responsibility for this.
this is lemmy.
Quaks like a duck.
The article mentions the US warned of an imminent attack last month and the Russian state dismissed it. Russia also has a history of utilizing false flag operations to start shit, so I’m leaning towards that atm (before more details come out)
I mean… Putin did get into power by running false flag terrorist bombings on his own country, so there’s that angle too.
Yea, but to stay in power all he has to do is rig the elections, so that theory doesn’t really make sense. I am not saying that a false flag attack is out of the question, but if it is a false flag, the reason for doing it is probably not to keep Putin in power.
PSA. It’s Ukraine, just Ukraine. Not “The Ukraine”
That and Kiev/Kyiv have been enlightening since this whole thing kicked off. I’ve got a couple Russian language textbooks but think it’s time to update to some Ukrainian
It’s like Cologne/Köln, doesn’t make sense as a point of contention.
Where did “the Ukraine” come from? Was it spawned from the Google?
Russia is not against doing false flag terrorist operations. That is how Putin came to power.
Also Putin is not Russia
IS has apparently claimed responsibility via telegram
This would have the opposite effect for Ukraine. It would cause Russians to actually rally around the flag and be more pro war. The Ukrainian strategy has been to just kill Russian combatants and hope they kill enough that Russians themselves start protesting the war on the home front.
And blow up oil refineries that fund the war machine.
It wouldn’t surprise me if this was Putin’s doing. He has a history of committing violence against him own people and blaming others.
ISIS is reportedly responsible.
Source?
The linked article
24 hours ago that wasn’t the case.
Oh
US intelligence wanted them weeks ago about an impending attack
Gunmen went in armed, met zero resistance, were busy for over an hour, no police ever showed up.
IS claimed responsibility pretty much immediately.
Putin ignored all that and obviously blamed Ukraine because of course.
This is no false flag operation, Russia would never.
Per the article, no one claimed responsibility
Yep, was hoping for updated news.
The Islamic State group claimed responsibility for the attack in a statement posted on affiliated channels on social media. A U.S. intelligence official told The Associated Press that U.S. intelligence agencies had learned the group’s branch in Afghanistan was planning an attack in Moscow and shared the information with Russian officials.
Respect to USA for trying.
The problem is that, this helps Putin. If we assume he has no regard for human life, then this is a massive opportunity for him. He’s made the most out of opportunities like this one in the past.
This attack on innocent lives is a profound tragedy as it is. I wish I could spend more time dwelling on the plight of the victims but my brain won’t stop panicking about all the ways Putin can exploit this situation to ruin even more lives.
It’s why I couldn’t shake the idea that this might be a false flag operation. It’s why I can’t deny the prospect that perhaps Russian security services didn’t do all they could to stop this before it occurred.
My thoughts to the victims and those close to them.
Putin is already blaming Ukraine.
US security services have notified Russia of an impending attack, they notified US citizens there to about large gatherings
Gunmen went in calmly, shot at people for 1.5 hours without being stopped, then calmly walked back into a car and drove off.
IS claimed responsibility immediately
Russia claims it arrested the same gunmen in the car that was already identified and look at that, they went straight for the Ukraine border, an impossible to pass war zone. Uh huh…
All of this clearly shows it was the Ukraine!
It’s why I couldn’t shake the idea that this might be a false flag operation. It’s why I can’t deny the prospect that perhaps Russian security services didn’t do all they could to stop this before it occurred.
It makes him look weak, distracted, and unprepared. People might think his attention and army is spread too thin with the war in Ukraine.
Seems like a really shitty false flag operation to me.
It wouldn’t exactly be the first time he’d do something like this, although if this is the case it’d be quite extreme even for him.
They also warned Iran before ISIS-K did their other attack.
Liberation means liberating the oppresses and the oppressors.
Okay, but there’s no way to know whether that “intelligence official” is telling the truth.
Maybe the US should have avoided creating Islamic fundamentalists to begin with. This all started because of the US funding mujahideen to fight Russia
Really, you don’t think the USSR invading Afghanistan before that plays any role?
In funding and creating Islamic fundamentalists, no and mujaheddin preexisted that event. The US did it by funding the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. This isn’t some conspiracy this is information revealed by FOIA and started before the Soviet invasion. This is all blowback for unbelievably bad US foreign policy in the 60s and part of the global fight against communism and not that one event. Mostly because the PLFP (Palestinians) were Marxist Leninists. We the people all lost the cold war.
https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691019413/we-all-lost-the-cold-war
https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Game-Unleash-Fundamentalist-American/dp/0805081372
So the U.S gov (who no one was working and making decisions back then) should go back in time and do something else instead of trying to take the high road now, because they took the low road then. Got it.
(Not trying to be snarky it’s just the logic here doesn’t add up other than ‘I want to be mad’)
They never stopped funding Islamic fundamentalism and mujaheddin for their purposes and are the biggest allies of Saudi Arabia which also funds Wahhabism worldwide. It isn’t the “high road” if you are the ones responsible for the actions you are warning about. To me what the Americans did sounds more like a threat than the high road. Never take anything reported by any intelligence community at face value. They do not deal in truth.
Warning, graphic videos
What was that thing at 0:20? One of them dropped something and the other one picked it up.
EDIT: 2nd last video is very graphic
Videos seem busted. I hit play and they don’t play.
I kinda struggle to show empathy for this, after the last couple years of them doing & supporting this kind of shit in Ukraine.
If you can’t show empathy for murdered civilians just because of their nationality, are you really any better? This was a concert hall, not a military base. Think about what you are tacitly endorsing here…
They said struggle - not that they couldn’t. Dont just attribute such a horrible thing based on your own reading. You can have all the empathy for the Russian people but no empathy for the Russian state. After all, the Russian state is also directly responsible for the continuous cold blooded murder of Ukrainian civilians. Not like they gave much warning on February 24th 2022, or in 2014.
Are you expecting me to tolerate the intolerant? No thanks. They don’t have any empathy towards Ukrainian civilians either. They rather encourage what is happening, be it torture, rape or murder and have imperialistic ambitions that stretch far beyond Ukraine, wanting to do the same to my country and others. So why should I care? If two scumbag factions murder each other then that’s a win win situation.
Just to clarify, you hold ethnic hatred towards all Russian people?
Probably because your a tribalist and think everyone else is, too.
I see it all the time and don’t expect more from you people at this point.
No, because Russians are modern day Nazis. Guilty to the bones.
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Jesus Christ you realize these are unarmed human beings being slaughtered right?
I don’t know what that means but it sounds a bit unkind.
@Wilshire @BaroqueInMind You you are a perfect example of how easy it is to program people with video games and movies lol
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I think it’s more representative of someone suffering irony poisoning.
@paraphrand They believe this wholeheartedly (they elaborated and deleted), that the Russians conducted a false flag attack on themselves to get support for a war they are already conducting. You could only believe it if you were completely addicted to propaganda.
My bet: Russian false flag operation allowing them to pin the attack on Ukraine and stir up anti Ukrainian sentiment.
EDIT: My bet was likely wrong.
Didn’t a lot of western countries warn their citizens to not attend any public gatherings in Moscow a couple of weeks ago due to an imminent Isis attack?
Yes indeed.
From what I have read, Russian government is already trying to blame Ukraine. Deepfakes where secretary of nsdc of Ukraine takes responsibility for the attack are being shown on Russian TV. Medvedev said in his tg that they will punish “Kievan regime” if it’s responsible for the attack.
red? It takes another meaning.
I meant to use Past Participle. Since verb in this form sounds different I thought that it should be written differently too. Thanks for correction.
It was the first thing they went for
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Oh hush.
Lol what the actual fuck are you smoking because please provide it to the rest of the class.
You are going to need to at least provide some sort of source to make a batshit insane comment like that.
Removed and temp banned for BLATANT misinformation.
This particular conspiracy theory stems from a couple of things… an ISIS attack on Israel back in, I think it was 2016? That ISIS actually APOLOGIZED for. Followed by this kind of weird lack of response from Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/
When you condsider how Israel has no problem killing Palestinians and bulldozing homes for throwing rocks or shooting off rockets that do little to no damage, that seems a little sus.
Oh, and they may have bought oil from ISIS.
But it’s a GIANT leap to go from that to “ISIS works for Israel to attack Russia.” That’s tinfoil hat territory.
Chechens finally making a move?
It could be. It certainly tracks with the separatists’ move into guerilla tactics later in the second Chechen war.
Out of any time for them to start striking again, this would be it. Russia is stretched thin in manpower and supplies, and their attention is very focused on Ukraine and the West. Their ability to dump resources into the southern Caucus to tamp down a potential Chechen War #3 is definitely going to be limited. And coupled with the completion of Putin’s sham election, it sends a very strong message against Russia’s outward facade of “unity”.
What, is Kadyrov not a lapdog anymore? He would seem to be the first hurdle, not a later one. Of course maybe he’s dead or something, idk, i haven’t checked tiktok in a long time.
Why would they attack random civilians instead of pulling a Wagner move towards the Kreml? Russia already showed that they wouldn’t have much of a resistance to show for it.
A terror attack requires a couple of guys with small arms. A move towards the Kremlin requires significantly more manpower and equipment.
They might have beards, hard to tell from the footage I’ve seen.
May be Islamic terrorism or a bad ol’ fashioned Russian false flag. I doubt Ukrainians or Ukrainian supporting people would do a random terror shooting, they like to be more targeted and the shooting was at random people. There was a foiled group of Islamic terrorists arrested earlier this month, maybe another group.
We will have to see what Russia says.
Yeah, Ukraine hasn’t done anything civilian targeting attacks so i highly doubt it was them. They know how important optics are when it comes to getting international support.
Well they targetted civilian targets (the refineries) but have not targetted civilians (i.e. people).
The distinction is not between civilian targets and military targets, it is between “civilian objects” and “military objectives”. Targeting a civilian infrastructure such as refineries, and even civilian power stations can be considered valid military objectives if they make an effective contribution to military action or offer a definite military advantage. The refineries being hit by Ukraine definitely meet that definition.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/when-are-attacks-civilian-infrastructure-war-crimes-2022-12-16/
Just pointing out that what Ukraine does not attack is civilians or in your nomeclature “civilian objects”, but unlike what might be understood from the post I was responding to (because it used “civilian” rather than “civilians”), it does attack civilian infrastructure (when it is a “military objective”, as you pointed out).
Personally I think the attacks on Russian refineries should already been happenning for a long time and I find it’s a disgrace the limitations most European countries and the US placed on Ukranian use of the weapons they provided inside Russia. Strategically it’s ridiculous that Ukraine has had to suffer its infrastructure and its Economy being destroyed whilst Russia needed not at all worry about having it’s productive and economic infrastructure degraded: since Putin doesn’t seem to care at all about human lives, until Ukraine finally made their own weapons with range enough to hit Russian Economic Targets and started targetting Russian refineries, this invasion of his had been almost risk-free.
Could be Chechen fringe separatist group. or Ingushetia.
The Third Chechen War
“Remember, no Russian”
Crazy that two words can evoke such memories.
Anyways, fuck Vlad and Slava Ukraini
More ukrainians are going to die because of sentiments like yours.
Yaaa, let’s blame the sentiments of observers for killing Ukrainians, not the genocidal kgb agent and the country where 88% of the voters reelected him…
No, 88% didn’t reelect him. You know that was a sham.
I can’t believe that there’s still people, who after seeing everything Putin has done, especially to interfere with other countries elections, think that their election was in any way valid
I’m guessing that they just wanted to shit on Russian citizens. I doubt they actually believe the election was legitimate.
and the country where 88% of the voters reelected him…
I know many people who didn’t, a few I suspect and literally zero who would admit voting for him.
Considering statistically each one of them is going to take 10-12 Russians with them, not a sacrifice made in vain.
If you go on to any of the pro-Ukrainian telegram channels, Ukrainians are absolutely rejoicing over this. One posted a video of the fire taken by a car driving by on the highway and captioned it “З днем свинячого шашлику” lol.
One of the most striking moments in a pretty forgettable series. D Day is also very good although more or less a copy of Saving Private Ryan
Which one? Afaik there’s like 3 d-days in the series or I lost count.
From CoD2, I didn’t play anything after MWII
China and Russia just blocked a truce in Gaza. Makes sense.
Makes sense. ISIS, who claimed responsibility for the attack, famously hates when Russia blocks a truce in Gaza.
There was no truce in that proposal. Just some stern words.
It was a cease fire proposal - you have to start somewhere. But Russia and China think it’s better to use Gazans a political pawns in the upcoming US elections, so surprise, surprise - some would disagree.
It was a temporary ceasefire proposal, the US has already blocked 3 permanent ceasefire proposals.
Same way Israel has been rejecting every permanent ceasefire for months. Because they prioritize extending genocide in Gaza over the release of hostages.
Stalinist. Makes sense - twist away. Blocked.
I’m not pro Stalin at all. Don’t know why you’d rather get mad at my name instead of the US and Israel prioritizing genocide over any avenues of peace.
This is about Palestinians deserving human rights, civil rights, and equality instead of ethnic cleansing.
Russia and China think it’s better to use Gazans a political pawns
Yes, especially the Kremlin.
MSNBC is reporting that Russian sources are saying 40 dead.
CNN is reporting 40 dead, but that the shooting was at a shopping center outside the concert hall.
Still developing.
CNN is reporting 40 dead, but that the shooting was at a shopping center outside the concert hall.
In the video I wish I hadn’t just watched it looked more like that to me.
There were gunmen in both places. Videos linked in this thread show that, though I do not recommend watching them.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Russian news reports said that the assailants also used explosives, causing a massive blaze at the Crocus City Hall on the western edge of Moscow.
Video posted on social media showed huge plumes of black smoke rising over the building.
Russia’s state RIA Novosti news agency reported that at least three people in combat fatigues fired weapons.
Extended rounds of gunfire could be heard on multiple videos posted by Russian media and Telegram channels.
Another one showed a man inside the auditorium, saying the assailants set it on fire, with incessant gunshots ringing out in the background.
Andrei Vorobyov, the governor of the Moscow region, said he was heading to the area and set up a task force to deal with the damage.
The original article contains 202 words, the summary contains 123 words. Saved 39%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
And of course uncle Putin is saying it was Ukraine.
US security services have notified Russia of an impending attack, they notified US citizens there to about large gatherings
Gunmen went in calmly, shot at people for 1.5 hours without being stopped, then calmly walked back into a car and drove off.
IS claimed responsibility immediately
All of this clearly shows it was the Ukraine!
So in essence:
-
US warns Russia for planned terror attack in Moscow
-
Russian government and Putin specific either ignore it for the reason the west is fooling them because would fit narrative for the war in Ukraine. Or
-
Russian government is just incompetent to do anything with that information. Or they know and deliberately don’t do anything with it to link it to Ukraine (even though the perpetrators are IS). Since this was also done in 1999 to blame the Chechnyans, it would fit the profile.
Either way it will be Soviet style lying. The incompetence will be wiped under the rug. The deliberate holding back information and not adequate precautions will not be easily to be proven, yet it creates the narrative for the mobilisation. Fear is Russia’s weapon of mass destruction, the lies are the instruments to fire those weapons.
“Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid.”
I mean the ‘chechn’ bombings were absolutely orchestrated by Putin, that’s how he came to power
-
have they tried to blame this on Woke yet?
Of course not, they’re already blaming Ukraine.
US security services have notified Russia of an impending attack, they notified US citizens there to about large gatherings
Gunmen went in calmly, shot at people for 1.5 hours without being stopped, then calmly walked back into a car and drove off.
IS claimed responsibility immediately
All of this clearly shows it was the Ukraine!
A thing that’s really annoying to me about this is they don’t specify what the gunmen looked like and specifically what rifles they were carrying. IS has claimed responsibility, but if it was a bunch of Russian dudes with brand new AKs, it’s far less likely it was actually the IS, and was just an FSB op. Granted the FSB could have supplied brand new AKs, but far less likely to be IS if it was just some Russian commandos
I don’t see an upside for Putin in this. Given how many years he’s been in power anything bad that happens falls on him for failing to prevent it, there’s hardly anyone else left to blame. He’ll probably fire a few people to look as if he’s doing something.
they’ve been known to recruit remotely, I think. and if it was someone from afganistan, i imagine they would source weapons locally. why would the guy go through the trouble/risk of smuggling a rifle and ammo? that makes no sense.
