Drinking lead can damage people’s brains, but Kansas Attorney General Kris Kobach opposes a plan to remove lead water pipes.
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In their letter, the attorneys general wrote, “[The plan] sets an almost impossible timeline, will cost billions and will infringe on the rights of the States and their residents – all for benefits that may be entirely speculative.”
Kobach repeated this nearly verbatim in a March 7 post on X (formerly Twitter).
Buttigieg responded by writing, “The benefit of not being lead poisoned is not speculative. It is enormous. And because lead poisoning leads to irreversible cognitive harm, massive economic loss, and even higher crime rates, this work represents one of the best returns on public investment ever observed.”
To be fair, it’s harder to understand the negative consequences of lead poisoning if you suffer from lead poisoning.
LMAO
“But if my constituents stop drinking lead, they will become woke and will stop believing the bullshit I’m pouring down their throats”
Not even that is true. The damage doesn’t revert on its own.
It’s true for the next generation.
Yeah but every election cycle they postpone removing lead, is another election cycle long in the future that they can expect a steady stream of lead poisoned voters.
So, Kobach et al’s complaint is that the plan to replace lead pipes is underfunded and so probably won’t cause enough of an impact on lead levels in drinking water to even bother, and yet the reason it’s underfunded is because Republicans specifically voted to not fund it properly. So instead of funding it 100% (or close to 100%), they chose to only fund about 1/3rd of what it would cost to replace all of the lead pipes.
It almost seems like Republicans want potential voters to imbibe neurotoxins that will negatively impact their IQ, harm their ability to concentrate, and make them more easily swayed by emotional appeals. I wonder why that could be?
Since they were only given 1/3 of the budget, they should announce that they’ll only be removing lead from low income districts (which the Republicans have red-lined into being largely black neighborhoods). See if fomo changes their minds.
It won’t change their minds, because they already think it’s not their problem. Their water doesn’t have lead, they presume.
It almost seems like Republicans want potential voters to imbibe neurotoxins that will negatively impact their IQ, harm their ability to concentrate, and make them more easily swayed by emotional appeals. I wonder why that could be?
This is my tin foil hat explanation. Also poor areas with more black and ethnic minority people are more likely to have lead pipes and it leads to increased crime and violence, thus further stoking racial tensions and increasing support for racist policy and therefore republicans
Recognizing that Republicans are monsters who will do literally anything for power doesn’t require any paranoia, just observation.
It almost seems like Republicans want potential voters to imbibe neurotoxins that will negatively impact their IQ, harm their ability to concentrate, and make them more easily swayed by emotional appeals.
It’s probably that they’re reaching for straws on anything they can complain about. Which works when their lower iq voters see that there is controversy.
I was listening to Know Your Enemy’s recent podcast titled Why the Right Loves Foreign Dictators (would definitely recommend a listen), and I came to a realization:
American conservative beliefs are not based on reality. That seems obvious, especially to this crowd, but like, the conservative dispossession of reality-based beliefs goes deep. Their version of rationality is adherence to an ideology and that is how they interpret the beliefs of others.
In this case, it manifests as opposing the removal of lead water pipes in the honest belief that, regardless of their danger—which is speculative to this idiot—it’s too expensive and “infringes” on rights. The value of lead pipe removal derives from whether its economically beneficial and its comportment with his idea of what infringes on rights, rather than on…you know…the scientifically proven damaging effects of lead.
Because he interprets the beliefs of others as perceived adherence to some ideology (which he almost certainly doesn’t understand), he dismisses the solid scientific evidence as speculative. It’s ideology vs ideology for him. Scientific claims are just another ideology.
To generalize, that’s why the pro-life movement “helps” women, that’s why be against welfare “supports” the nation, that’s why supporting Putin “defends” liberty, and that’s why voting for Trump makes America “great”. It’s not about real results, it’s just pure ideological adherence from the bottom to the top. It’s fitting that Trump is their messiah. He’s the greatest bullshitter modern politics has ever seen.
Their version of rationality is adherence to an ideology and that is how they interpret the
beliefsmotives of others.Motives is a better word than beliefs. Other than that I’ve come to the same conclusion.
Conservatives deeply depend on ideology. This is why they say everything is a slippery slope, because their own plan is to keep going with their ideology. They can’t understand that others want to do one action, without some secret grand plan to ____.
In other words, for those that tldr: Conservatives could be incredibly kind and might often actually do the right thing, if they weren’t total idiots. Problem is: They believe too hard literally all the time and base their self off an ideology built on narratives, true or false.
Problem is: They believe too hard literally all the time and base their self off an ideology built on narratives, true or false.
I don’t think that’s a conservative specific thing there, and if you do odds are you’re doing the same thing but privileging the ideologies and narratives you are using in a way that you don’t think they count as narratives or ideologies but as either facts, justice or something along those lines.
To put it another way, I suspect if I asked for a list of your ten mostly firmly held and allegedly defensible political beliefs and we really drilled down to the bedrock on them we’d hit some bits that are more ideology or narrative than you’d be readily comfortable to admit. Or cases where you built the position around a principle that only applies when it otherwise neatly aligns with your preferred ideologies and narratives.
For example, pro-choice people tend to be able to invoke one or more general principles that they often claim being pro-choice is an example or expression of (bodily autonomy is a popular one), but it’s shockingly common for nearly the only controversial case where they’ll apply those principles to be abortion (and I say this as someone who is pro-choice).
Kelly Oliver (philosophy professor at Vanderbilt specializing in feminism among a few other topics, ironically including ethics) once argued that feminist theory isn’t about producing true theories or false theories but rather strategic theories - in other words it’s not about whether or not it’s true but whether or not it is useful for activism. This sounds shockingly like something conservatives might say about some of their hot button claims of the moment if they were being unusually honest.
They could be decent people, but aren’t.
Got it.
Actions speak louder than words. If you say you love and support children, but vote to take away their rights to be who they are and read what they want, you’re a bad person. If you say you support women, but vote to take away their bodily autonomy and voice, you’re a bad person. If you say you support helping the poor, but vote to decrease or eliminate social programs meant to help the poor, you’re a bad person.
But they’ll never realize that.
Why do you help moderate the largest conservative Lemmy community then?
It seems you’re just helping legitimize their beliefs.
I came oh-so-close to moderating a conservative community and I am quite vocally opposed to conservatism.
I’m hoping that maybe some conservative communities on Lemmy are moderated by normal (non-conservative) people who can keep the conservatives within the bounds of their instance’s guidelines. Perhaps this is one such moderator. That would certainly be better than letting conservatives moderate a community. We’ve seen how that turns out.
I hear what you’re saying but I disagree.
I think that is the instance’s admins responsibility to deal with a community’s moderators.
I believe that moderating an extreme community’s view to make it more broadly accessible is not helping anything.
Well, we’re on Lemmy, so the attraction to conservative views, extreme or moderate, is often few and far between.
Also, I’m not moderating for the purpose of making their views appear more moderate. To his credit, the main mod asked me to mod because he understood he was biased against leftist views and would ban them even if they were in good faith. I basically protect leftists that show up and participate according to the rules. And I ban the hard headed ones that don’t.
I also have the opportunity to confront the misinformation that so often comes from conservative communities almost immediately. I might have to leave the post up, to my chagrin, but by being among the first comments, I can leverage how people use social media (see headline, read comments) to better inform folks.
Moderating herein means kicking and banning people whose behavior is unacceptable or locking and removing individual posts and comments that are unacceptable. For instance a conservative sub may have threads on the virtues of tax cuts for the rich by relatively normal folks and threads calling for lynching black folks for imaginary crimes.
I believe the rich should pay their fair share but I sure hope someone normal is willing to allow the former and ban the latter even if the would be lynch mobs threads are couched in polite and indefinite language while they spread their lies and hate. I feel like a normal fellow might be better situated to make such a distinction than someone of a conservative bent who is looking to follow the bare letter of the law so to speak.
In theory that sounds great but if you visit the community they moderate you’ll see that they are the token leftist to legitimize them.
One of the problems with lead poisoning is you end up too stupid to know what lead poisoning is
Which is the way the GOP likes it. Dumb people don’t question their authoritarian rule.
I love how they say it could cost 47 billion dollars and this was only for 15 billion so they fight to say replacing the pipes is highly underfunded. The request was for 45 billion and his party demanded lower amounts and only allotted 15 then went on to call it underfunded now to try to get it canceled.
They say it could take years to get inner city places like Chicago all taken care of… So let me guess, their plan is to wait longer and hurt us more, doesn’t that usually mean you would start immediately?
As an actual water service professional, I kind of get it. If you control pH and add corrosion inhibitors like orthophosphate, lead pipe are not a problem. Flint fiscal managers decided to skip this to save money.
Unfortunately the plan is a largely unfounded mandate ($15B won’t even cover 10% of lead lines) with a timeline that will further jack up the price due to everyone competing for materials and contractors.
The vast majority of lead poisoning comes from old paint, not lead water pipes (and leaded gasoline before that … or now if you live downwind from a general aviation airport as piston aircraft STILL use leaded gas. Yet we won’t ban that ‘cause rich people own those planes).
Not that it isn’t good to remove lead. It’s just the aggressive timeline. It would be smarter to have a longer timeline where it is paired with replacing the main as well, as it is a smaller marginal cost to do both at the same time. The corrosion control can buy us plenty of time. I personally have a lead connection and a state licensed lab detected zero lead in my water.
But to phrase it as a state’s rights issue and claim the benefits are speculative is stupid.
As an actual aviation professional, I’m going to object to “waterworks made of lead pipes: too expensive to fix. 100LL aviation gasoline: Rich people refuse to change.”
First of all, rich people own jets, which don’t burn leaded gasoline.
Aircraft tend to last longer in service than cars do; airplanes are expensive machines. You’ll also find that they don’t change very quickly because certifying aircraft components such as engines is a very expensive thing to do. Plus, YOU go get an insurance company to cover a new type of aircraft they don’t already have accident statistics for.
But, things are happening. So lemme tell ya what has, is, and will be done to reduce and eliminate leaded gasoline from our skies:
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The Light Sport rule. in 2004 new certification standards for aircraft, pilots and repairmen were created which opened up the small end of general aviation. We basically didn’t have anything that resembled Europe’s “ultralight” rules. USA’s Ultralight rules (FAR part 103) more closely resembled Europe’s “Microlight” rules. The vast majority of light sport aircraft are powered by Rotax 900-series engines, or Jabiru or the occasional Continental O-200, all of which can run on unleaded automotive gasoline. Every single hour of instruction I’ve given to a student has been on unleaded gasoline. There’s a proposal right now to expand the Light Sport rule that will do anything from increase the scope of what can be certified as a Light Sport Aircraft, and to open their operating limitations. For instance right now as I type this it is illegal to operate a Light Sport Aircraft for compensation or hire except to provide flight training. They’re looking to open them up to things like aerial photography, pipeline patrol etc. which would not only allow these operations to be performed on unleaded gasoline, but less gasoline overall. A Cessna 172 burns between 6 and 8 gallons of 100LL per hour, a Flight Design CT burns between 2.5 and 5 gallons of premium MOGAS per hour. Every operation that can switch to a Light Sport Aircraft can reduce their carbon footprint and eliminate their lead footprint.
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Diesel engines. I’ve seen both Cessna and Diamond install turbo-diesels based on some Mercedes-Benz engine, intending to run these on Jet-A fuel which is and always has been unleaded. It’s been slow going though; Diamond only offers this on their Twinstar model (and they had some issues with it for awhile; there were some made with Lycoming gasoline engines) and Cessna canceled theirs.
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The EAGLE initiative has set a goal to Eliminate Aviation Gasoline Lead Emissions by 2030 by finding a fuel acceptable to replace 100LL in service. This is non-trivial, the testing on all the various engines in service on some surprisingly old aircraft, not only their power plants but the fuel systems as a whole is significant. Many airplanes can’t tolerate ethanol as a fuel additive because it will react with sealants used in the tanks and lines, for instance.
Rich people have prop planes. You don’t have to be Elon Musk private jet rich to be rich. If you own even a 1960s Cessna 172 costs tens of thousands, not to mention thousands a year in maintenance to keep it airworthy, with regular inspections and overhalls, not to mention storage costs as you will need a hanger or at least a tie-down at some airfield. If you own an airworthy aircraft, you are well within the top 10% at least, and likely in the top 1%. I really am tired of people who act like because there are people far richer than them that it somehow means they cannot be rich. There are degrees of being rich.
Yes, planes last a long time. So what? Is that an excuse to poison people with lead? The fact is, children who live close to airports have higher lead levels..
If you want to talk about lasting a long time, try houses. My utility banned lead as a connection material in 1953. But there are 140,000 that were installed before then that are still active. We are not getting a pass on it in 2024 like aviation does.
Led gasoline was banned in 1996. The EPA started to phase it out in 1973. Aviation has had plenty of time to get moving on alternatives, but they have drug their feet. They don’t get kudos for doing something about lead now.
You don’t have to be Elon Musk rich to be private jet rich either.
I started flying in 2001, earned my private license in 2005 and my instructor certificate in 2010. I’ve spent some time in and around the flying community. The aircraft owners I encountered were pretty solidly middle class. Business owners, soldiers, a lot of retirees, a few college professors, college students, the occasional lawyer. And quite a few professional pilots.
There’s this idea on Lemmy that anyone who can afford to fill their car all the way up with gas is “rich.” A lot of people are rightly mad about that kind of middle class lifestyle being denied them. We absolutely should be guillotining people over it. But owning a piston single isn’t as elite as you seem to think it is.
They don’t get kudos for doing something about lead now.
Yes they do. “30 years ago or never” doesn’t help anyone.
Piston-powered airplanes aren’t only used by private owners; they’re heavily used in training fleets. Go look at what it costs to become a commercial pilot, let alone an airline transport pilot. Look at how much the world depends on commercial aviation, and then let me ask you: Where do you want society to bear the cost of certifying new engines to replace the existing fleets of trainers?
It genuinely is as big a task as ripping up all those lead water pipes. The 20th century absolutely did fuck us over. And we are fixing it.
Your definition of middle class is very different than mine. The middle class can’t be 90% of people. It takes less than you might think to fall in the top 10 and 20 percent, and I’d call being in that upper quintile being rich.
And I never said “30 years ago or never.” But aviation needed to start 40+ years ago. All the more reason to have done so since you say it is a monumental task. Instead, the aviation community continues to drag its feet. Had we done something earlier, perhaps we would have had better means to train people today.
And there absolutely have been new engines developed since lead gas was banned for cars. The Lycoming IO-390 came out in 2002, was certified in 2009, and was STILL designed to take leaded gas and only leaded gas!
That’s besides the fact that building a world that relies on just-in-time deliveries flown around the globe was monumentally stupid.
Also, aviation is for profit. I don’t believe in socializing the losses and privatizing the profits. Water utilities are almost entirely nonprofit, and we don’t get near enough funding.
But I would bet that will the tools we have in water to control lead leaching that aviation poisons more with lead than water. It’s time aviation be forced to change at least as much as water is.
Also, aviation is for profit. I don’t believe in socializing the losses and privatizing the profits.
So you want society to pay those costs in air fares. You want to throw away a lot of the GA fleet, including a vast majority of the trainer aircraft in service. You’d see a lot of flight schools especially smaller ones just fold because their current aircraft is useless and unmarketable, so they have no capital with which to buy new ones. A lot of flight instructors would lose their jobs, and flight instructor certificates are the only ones issued under Part 61 that expire. With fewer people being trained as private pilots you’d have a much smaller pool of mostly richer young folks to pull from for commercial aviation, so the main effect of this will be flying will become a rich son’s way to demand more money from society.
The IO-390 is a derivative of the IO-360, which itself dates back to the 1950’s. Funnily enough it’s rated for a similar horsepower range to the O-360, but with 30 more cubic inches, basically having the same bore and stroke as the IO-580 but with 4 cylinders rather than 6. I wonder why they bothered.
You get to cherry pick an example, I get to cherry pick an example. The Rotax 915 was type certified a few years ago, it runs on premium automotive gasoline, features electronic capacitor discharge ignition, electronic fuel injection, turbocharged induction, dry sump lubrication, and a host of other features. It makes 141 horsepower, fairly close to the Continental O-300 that pulled early model Skyhawks. They just recently announced a 916 version that makes 160 horsepower, which is the same rating as early Lycoming powered Skyhawks. And they’ll make their rated horsepower up to 15,000 feet. Couple that with a constant speed propeller and you’ve got a hell of a power plant for a trainer in both performance and efficiency, for both climbs and cruise.
Instead, the aviation community continues to drag its feet.
In 2004 the Light Sport rule was adopted, which put thousands of brand new lead-free GA trainers in the air, replacing an aging fleet of Cessna 152s and the like. It’s been such a success that there’s an initiative underway (MOSAIC) right now to expand the scope of Special Airworthiness Certificates to include significantly larger and higher performance aircraft, which stands an excellent chance of modernizing the GA fleet, making it much more practical to market new airframes and powerplants to flight schools and other GA operations. Part of the proposal is to remove engine-specific language from the rule to allow for electric propulsion.
The EAGLE initiative seeks to find a lead free substitute for 100LL by the end of the decade.
But you keep going off.
So you want society to pay those costs in air fares.
Yes, that’s how capitalism works. You want the government to pay, the industry should be nationalized. When other industries pollute, we don’t expect the government to pay to help them fix their issues.
You want to throw away a lot of the GA fleet, including a vast majority of the trainer aircraft in service.
Yes BECAUSE YOU ARE POISONING CHILDREN WITH LEAD, a fact you continue to ignore. You just want to keep doing what you are doing and say in the back of your mind “fuck them kids.”
As, as you keep missing the point, had aviation been working on the problem sooner, perhaps it wouldn’t be such an issue now.
And, yes, I grabbed an example that demonstrated the issue. Lycoming, on of the largest piston aircraft manufacturers, was still pushing forward with tetraethyl lead decades after we knew the dangers of tetraethyl lead. I know certification is time consuming and expensive, but no one tries for a long time. If aviation didn’t drag its feet, they should have been working on the issue since the early 90s at least. Saying “in 2004” proves my point. They are only doing it because they finally see that their hand will be forced. Once lead pipes are gone and lead paint is abated, when kids keep showing up with high blood levels of lead, they will know it’s from the only industry that still uses lead.
And before you blame the FAA, 2 words: regulatory capture. Just so happens they are staffed with people from the aviation industry.
The fact is, the claim is always about safety. Can’t leave 100LL, other fuels are too dangerous. But why isn’t it EVERYONE’S safety? Lead poisoning is a serious issue that has been glossed over in aviation. And the victims are innocent, often poor people (because who else is forced to live in cheaper land near airports), and especially their children. For a supposedly safety focused industry, y’all seem to not give a shit about the people on the ground.
Well let me ask you a question: What have you personally done about it?
I’ve submitted comments on the MOSAIC and EAGLE initiatives, I conducted much of my own flight training and all that of my students in lead-free aircraft, I’ve served as a light sport repairman to make owning and operating lead-free aircraft in my local area much more plausible and affordable, I’ve educated all my students on the dangers of leaded gasoline, I was among the voices that got MOGAS pumps installed at two local airports to enable pilots with MOGAS compatible aircraft to operate on unleaded fuel.
Have you so much as written to your congressman? Or do you just want to bitch at people on the internet?
First of all, rich people own jets, which don’t burn leaded gasoline.
I can’t speak to the rest of your post, but if you own and maintain even the smallest Cessna for personal use, you are rich to me, and you are rich to anyone I’ve ever known personally, and you are rich to most people. That’s like saying owning a Ferrari doesn’t make you rich.
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Lead paint was banned in the U.S. in 1978 because of its toxicity. This stuff can and will kill you.
Conservatives need to stop treating every deadly poison like a “who can chug the most beer contest.” This isn’t a game (unless you’re a company seeking to bypass lead restrictions, in which case it’s totally a game to YOU).
Here’s something wild: it was only banned for residential use. As long as the paint is labeled ‘for industrial use only’, manufacturers can go crazy with the lead. Despite the common misconception of lead exposure via paint being primarily due to “eating paint chips”, it’s mostly due to the inhalation and ingestion of the dust formed by friction and the gradual breakdown of lead paint. To get to the point, living downwind of any business that still utilizes legal lead paint means you may be exposed to lead.
My conspiracy theory is on some level, conservatives are aware that their worldview is at least in part a symptom of lead poisoning induced brain damage, so they rely on lead poisoning for votes.
Considering all the conspiracy theories involving fluoride in the water supply, you’d think they’d catch on to the actually dangerous lead in the water supply and come up with conspiracies involving that instead.
The weird thing about conspiracy theorist types is they never want to talk about real conspiracies, just shit about how they faked the moon landing with 5g chips
I don’t think it’s exactly a conspiracy, but I have little doubt that a whole lot of Republican politicians are thinking exactly that.
He makes a logical argument with sound reasoning, logical conclusions and a definitive solution. The facts are clear and there is no ambiguity.
No wonder they dont understand, because its not the immigrants, trans- or black-people at fault here.
Fitting how the average republican consistently behaves exactly like a person suffering from lead-poisoning…
The Brookings Institution, a social policy think tank, noted that the actual cost of replacing all of the nation’s lead pipes is closer to $47 billion. The Biden administration originally requested $45 billion for the project, but congressional Republicans negotiated the amount down to $15 billion. The institute also noted that replacing pipes in crowded urban cities like Chicago could take 40 to 50 years.
So it is underfunded, because Republicans didn’t want to fully fund the effort.
Also, when they talk about “homeowners” replacing their lead pipes, what they really mean is “landlords.” Homeowners have an interest in replacing lead pipes because there will be an ROI when they sell, and also the improved quality of life (not spending money on lead filters or bottled water, no cognitive impairment, etc).
The losers in this situation are the corportate slumlords for whom it will cost more to replace water pipes, and who will not see most of the benefit. They’ll have a hard time justifying raising the rent by saying “now the water is no longer toxic.”
Do you not understand that actual homeowners could get royally fucked? I can’t imagine how I would even begin to pay for replacing my home’s pipes.
Did no one read the article? All of his complaints are correct! Replacing old city pipes, that are almost assuredly covered in years of internal layers to mitigate lead leaking, will have a negligible to possibly even negative effect on lead at the tap. Even Brookings said so in their study! Buttigieg is getting a total pass here ignoring the real issues raised by just rebutting about how lead is bad, when they’re both saying that. So tired of people scoring cheap political points on soundbites, and Buttigieg doesn’t usually fall prey to that sort of thing.
Yes, the funding should have been higher, but if we’ve only got 15 million to work with, it might actually make more sense to do targeted fixes in low income communities in old residential buildings, where you’re most likely to have lead effects actually being felt at the tap from (relatively) newer lead pipe still in walls. But that would be expensive and much harder than just replacing water mains, so they’re doing the easy less-important work first, rather than getting the biggest bang for their buck.
Kobach later responded to Buttigieg, writing, “What’s speculative is that the admin’s EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] rule will have ANY EFFECT AT ALL on lead in tap water. It doesn’t touch the pipes in buildings where most lead pipes are. You’d know that had you bothered to click the link [to Kobach’s February 9 statement against the plan].”
Yeah, he’s not questioning the toxicity of lead, he’s questioning whether this effort would make a difference in lead content.
I’m out. Y’all continue the circle jerk.
Astroturfing rightwing bot says what?
